Retired beers in the Top 250?

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by eawolff99, Sep 25, 2020.

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  1. eawolff99

    eawolff99 Meyvn (1,133) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader

    Aren’t a lot of these beers retired? When was the last time SR-71, Ann, others released? May I suggest a purge of retired beers from the top 250 .... ??
     
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  2. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Meyvn (1,099) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Society Trader

    I thought SR-71 and Ann still make regular appearances. As far as I know, the entire Top 250 list is comprised of regular, seasonal, annual and semi-annual releases. I could be wrong now...But I don't think so.

    It's a jungle out there.
     
  3. eawolff99

    eawolff99 Meyvn (1,133) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader

    Similarly - because years are assigned to BBT that’s constantly a top rated beer of all time but doesn’t get fairly placed in the top 250 - I think we need a bit more human intervention here vs pure algorithm ...
     
  4. eawolff99

    eawolff99 Meyvn (1,133) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader

    My understanding is SR-71 has been released twice in past 5 years (2015 and 2018) - this beer shouldn’t be in the top 250 if BBT isn’t. It’s anything less than a regular annual or semi-annual release. Same with Ann.
     
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  5. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Meyvn (1,099) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Society Trader

    I fully agree - I do not at all care for the new individual vintage/retiring previous vintage listing thing for certain beers. I think there are better alternatives that would better and more fairly place beers in their respective positions as far as ratings go. It's not like every yearly release has its own entry. What about Dark Lord? Haven't certain vintages of that beer sucked?

    Unless the blend, recipe, base, or fruit/adjunct addition is wildly different from year-to-year, why retire each vintage when the next comes out?
     
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  6. eawolff99

    eawolff99 Meyvn (1,133) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader

    Absolutely spot on.
     
  7. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Meyvn (1,099) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Society Trader

    Interesting. I always thought SR-71 was around longer than that, and just underwent a name change. I know Ann isn't super predictable, but I feel like it isn't going anywhere, and will continue to show up. Nevertheless, if that's true, I suppose you have a point.
     
  8. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (3,319) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Moderator Society Trader

    Beers which are marked as retired in the database do not appear in any of the BA Top lists, as you can see when going to the beer's page. If any beers which are actually retired still appear in these lists, it's because they are not marked as retired in the database. You can send a correction to mark a beer as retired via the beer tools on the beer page, which will need to be approved by the mods.

    There really is no "new individual vintage/retiring previous vintage listing thing" on BA, it has always been the policy not to allow vintage listings unless the beer is radically different for individual vintages. BBT has been deemed as such because the time it ages for and barrels it ages in are radically different for each vintage.
     
  9. Longhorn08

    Longhorn08 Aspirant (258) Feb 4, 2014 Texas
    Trader

    Not that I disagree, but by this logic how would we handle CBS or BCBCS? Those go dormant for a LONG time at times.
     
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  10. Gkruszewski

    Gkruszewski Poo-Bah (2,207) Nov 1, 2013 New York
    Society Trader

    I always thought a retired list was needed, a top 250 available would be a lot easier to track
     
  11. eawolff99

    eawolff99 Meyvn (1,133) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader

    I don't really think that the community should decide material differences batch by batch of beers that the brewery has chosen to maintain the same name - Beer:Barrel:Time is a good example of that -- just because SP changes barrels or ages longer or shorter than prior batches, they've kept the same name of the beer. The counter example to this is what Goose Island does (BCBS vs Rare, as an example) -- two different beers according to the brewers. BBT is not. Assuredly, we are not researching the bourbon barrel and duration of aging of each beer on the list, are we (do we know what barrels Founders has used over the years for KBS / CBS / etc?? I can confidently say there is MAJOR batch variation among those beers over the past decade -- yet they're bundled under the same name)?

    So ... what are thoughts here? I'd argue SR-71, CBS, Ann are retired. I'd argue BBT ratings should be aggregated into one beer and ranked accordingly. Other call outs??
     
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  12. traction

    traction Defender (637) Dec 4, 2010 Georgia
    Society Trader

    I want to say within the past year or so Todd already played with the algorithm for top beers due to other issues; I want to say it was pretty much full of OH and Treehouse releases . From my time on this site it seems it is constantly being updated.

    I'm not sure this is a good idea or not (my initial thoughts are no as it may be a pain in the ass) would be to release a Top 250 of all time list and and a Top 250 of the year list. Someone else mentioned removing retired beers from the Top 250 and I think that would be a slightly better idea than mine but I'm still not sure how I feel about it one way or the other
     
  13. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Poo-Bah (4,076) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
    Society Trader

    I always thought the purpose of the Top 250 was to showcase the best of the beers in the market now. It doesn't mean they're widely available, but they were available for public purchase/consumption sometime within the last 12 months.

    Yes, this means some classics like CBS would drop off the list, but the list would be a more accurate representation of the current craft beer scene vs. hype-beasts that come around irregularly.

    With that in mind, I'd be all for an 'all-time top 250' or something similar that could include retired beers.
     
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  14. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,927) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Its not really what BA members argue though - its what the Brewery says. If the beer is retired and there are no plans of it coming back, then we can retire it here. If its an irregular release and the brewery just releases it when they release it, and its not technically retired, then it stays active.

    If there is a specific beer that you think should be retired, please feel free to submit an update, explain why it should be listed as retired, and the Mod team will review it and, if appropriate, retire the beer.
    CBS was just released last winter (and the year before) and is still sitting on many shelves.

    There is the beers of fame, which is something similar for beers that have been around for 15 years or more: https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/fame/

    Although, admittedly, that does not include retired beers.
     
  15. Coronaeus

    Coronaeus Meyvn (1,171) Apr 21, 2014 Canada
    Trader

    Brewery websites complicate things too. There is a beer on the Canada Top 100 that hasn’t been available in about 4 years. It is still listed on the brewery website as a rotational beer. Should be retired here?
     
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  16. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Poo-Bah (4,076) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
    Society Trader

    If a group doesn't report it as for sale with a new bottling date - retired.
     
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  17. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,938) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    Side Project themselves refers to the year when writing about BBT.
     
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  18. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,938) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    So, unless a brewery puts out a five year plan, only year-round and annual seasonals are not retired? Or, even more strict, if a beer is not released for a year it is retired? Really?

    I'm not sure what all the fretting is about.

    The Top 250 list is what it is. Does it really matter if BBT is not on the list but SR-71 is?

    IOW, WTFC?
     
  19. WickedBeer

    WickedBeer Poo-Bah (2,101) Sep 23, 2015 Alabama
    Society Trader

    i agree here. I don’t necessarily think there should be purge, just more of a re-thinking of how the list is comprised. Yes, beers like SR-71 and Ann are very seldom released, but even if its last one was the last time it was brewed, people still jump through plenty of hoops to try and land bottles from personal collections. That said, Side Project beers should be way higher on this list (OWK, BBT, Derivations, etc), and that’s just one example.
     
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  20. DokiDokiLitFam

    DokiDokiLitFam Disciple (378) Jun 3, 2019 New Jersey

    While I agree with some brews needing to be removed, it would require a lot of moderation and personal touches. There are some brews that have recent reviews, but are 5 year old vintages. And reviews before those go back a few years as well. Like the Kaggen! Stormaktsporter by the brewery from Sweden.

    I feel if a brewery wants to maintain a spot at the top it needs to be brewed at least one a year, two years tops. Or make a more transparent schedule like Founders does.

    It seems a little unfair to let a brewery make a brew a handful of times and then rest on their laurels for too long. There's a lot of hungry breweries out there looking to get a spot up at the top. Circulation and exposure is good. If they deserve it of course.
     
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  21. Bhubbard34

    Bhubbard34 Initiate (159) Mar 4, 2016 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    I look at and use the top 250 list more than anything here on BA as it’s my goal to try everything in the Top 100. (Also the trade forums). Yes there are beers on there that areant regular releases...but that’s part of the fun and part of the elusiveness and chase. Ann was released in 2019...why would it be retired. We know Hill Farmstead Brewery has more of that aging in barrels now and while we don’t know when...it will come out again. So why would it be retired out of top 250. If a brewery clearly releases a one-off then yea it shouldn’t be in top 250, but just because it’s not easy to get and released yearly doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the list. Duck Duck Gooze is another example - Released every 3 years...does that mean it’s not a top 100 beer?!?

    Not sure about BBT maybe that should be listed as “one” beer instead of vintages so it can make the top list
     
    #21 Bhubbard34, Sep 25, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  22. DokiDokiLitFam

    DokiDokiLitFam Disciple (378) Jun 3, 2019 New Jersey

    If a brewery has an explicit schedule and its a really long cycle, due to barrel aging typically, then I would say thats the exception. But many breweries aren't that forthcoming with that knowledge and I don't expect the BA mods to call up breweries like detectives on cold cases to get verification. If you don't re-up enough, consider it retired. Its not like it can't be brought back anyway.
     
  23. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,149) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society

    While it might be interesting for some, I don't think it would provide value for most. It would end of being a list of very old hyped beers that no one will ever be able to get again and my guess is that a handful of breweries would dominate the list; providing even less value.
    That what the suggesting edits is for. We rely on the industry and members to help us keep our listing up-to-date. But if no one reports or can confirm that a beer is no longer being produced...
    That's kind of what these lists are for:
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/top-new/
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/trending/
    I've applied countless changes to the Top 250 as a result of re-thinking things and applying user feedback over the years. No plans to stop!
     
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  24. zac16125

    zac16125 Poo-Bah (2,152) Jan 26, 2010 South Carolina
    Society Trader

    Yeah, let’s get rid of truly elite beers to make more room for milkshake IPAs and pastry stouts. Hell, let’s completely wipe the Top 250 beers list clean every year so that every flavor of the week trend can have its time on the top 250 list!

    Personally I think Beer Advocate is way too into trends and fads. Restructuring the Top 250 to meet whatever more stringent release requirements would just swing the pendulum more in that direction. Plus, if you are removing a higher rated beer simply because it hasn’t been released in the past year, and replacing it with a lower rated yearly offering, you are by definition diluting the quality of what should be the best of the best.
     
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  25. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Meyvn (1,099) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Society Trader

    Was the change that was made to B:B:T not made to several others during that update of sorts? I swear, I thought I remember Flora also being targeted, as well as others. I could be entirely wrong, in which case, I don't actually know what I'm thinking, and I don't really have an ice cube in this tray.
     
  26. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (1,567) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    My understanding is that BBT is more like a series of beers. Each one unique and not supposed to match up to the previous iterations. With lots of blended beers, whether their annual releases, occasional releases, or regularly available, the brewer is striving for consistency. I am under the impression that that is not the case with bbt and the brewer conceives of each release in the series as a separate beer
     
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  27. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Meyvn (1,099) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Society Trader

    I think I've got a decent grasp on that, and I'm not bothered by its classification. Would I separate them? Maybe not, but that's not what I'm lost on. I genuinely thought the same thing was done to several other well-known beers that are very much the same beer every release. That's what I would disagree with - if there's even any truth to it.
     
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  28. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,938) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    One variable is how the brewer markets each release. My impression is the same as @unlikelyspiderperson's, namely that with BBT, the brewer is intentionally going for something different each year, at least in their marketing of the beer.

    (For a more pedestrian example of this same thing, look at the Anchor Christmas beer, "Our Special Ale" ... intended to be different each year, and it carries a vintage year with its entry in the database.)

    While other brewers do follow a similar process (i.e. blending) with some of their BA beers, many (most?) times their intent is consistency (i.e. to mitigate the natural variation of barrel aging), rather than making each release unique, and using that in their marketing of the beer.
     
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  29. beertunes

    beertunes Poo-Bah (7,694) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    Because if they're different, they're different. Abyss is different every year, all vintages shouldn't be lumped together.
     
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  30. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,149) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society

    Locking this one down now. We have a system in place to handle adding new beers and retiring ones that are no longer in production.
     
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