Revisiting Auctions: Keep or Ban 'em?

No. It sounds like you're a little confused about some of this terminology.

Nobody is being "obligated" to do anything. Please remember that we're collectively talking about potential guidelines for a marketplace. KBB isn't market value. Bob's demand alone isn't market value.

And I’m discussing how auctions impact market value. I’m not discussing whether one is permitted or not permitted to make certain trades or transactions for a value other than market value. Truly don’t mean to be rude but I’m not quite sure how that miscommunication occurred.

Your example is very different in all of these respects. Perhaps if you try to come up with a similar example in another regulated marketplace, it would make a little more sense.

And you're very right that certain bottles hold different value to others. People are currently allowed to make those above-market offers for bottles and people are currently permitted to accept above-market offers. None of that is impact whatsoever by this.

 

Ok, What about those raffles people do? people pay 5$ a ticket to win a drawing for a whale. What if the person who does the raffle say for a BBT gets 200 people to buy a ticket at 5$ each. Does this mean BBT's value is now 1K ?

I really dont think an auction messes with a beers trade value as much as people think it does. They are different and that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

I do agree with you here 100%. I don't think posting, "FT: X / ISO: 2 Y" getting a ton of messages (big bottles seem to get 20-50 messages in a single day), and taking the one offer that has 2 Y + Z counts as an "auction". Offers always vary to some degree anyway. Now, this is assuming you didn't agree to trade with someone else first, and you have the decency to respond to your other messages, even if it's just to say you've closed on an offer. But I wouldn't blame a single person for checking their messages, seeing one that's a bit more appealing or generous, and deciding to close on that one. I mean, it is your beer.

 

Okay, you were speaking from the admin side.
I don't trade (no unique desirables here ) so I don't understand why the participants wouldn't insist on public transactions just to keep everyone honest.

But yeah, requiring public auctions without full user cooperation would be a moderating nightmare.

 

That’s a better example, thank you! And yes, razzles artificially inflate value as well.

Is there really any argument otherwise? In the most common forum on this topic it’s been accepted as obvious for a long time. That’s why when people post about a beer’s “value” it’s encouraged to post how the transaction occurred so readers can make of it what they will.

Still truly not sure how you took what you did from my initial comment, but I hope that clarifies a little?

 

I voted to keep them, but I do not feel strongly either way as someone who has not participated in auctions, although I’m sure I’ve thrown lists at people with open ISO’s to see if I had any beers of interest.

Here was my reasoning for voting to keep auctions.

1) Reading through comments, moderation on what is an auction would be difficult and messy. If someone is ISO a list of beers, they may get multiple offers from the list and chose one they like the most. This may be viewed by some as an auction, but I think most view auction as a “best offer” post. Messy to distinguish.

2) I’m in favor of keeping everyone interested in trading, and if “best offer” posts keep folks involved, that’s cool. Some newer traders don’t know what beers they want, just want to try new beers so post for a “best offer”. That doesn’t offend me.

3) If a BA’er wants to post an auction and sort through all the messages, that doesn’t impact my trading activity if I choose not to participate. There’s millions of combinations of fair trades out there factoring in beers available and relative value ($4$ or secondary) so if anything, a “best offer” post only encourages seeking out new, and fun, trade combinations.

Again, don’t feel strongly either way in this topic, but @Todd, hope this helps with some thoughts on the minority side of the vote.

 

Of course it is the poster’s beer to do as they choose with. But perhaps it would be a little more transparent of them in this scenario to say, instead of “ISO 2Y,” something like: “ISO 2Y, but if you offer 2Y and someone else offers me 2Y+ afterwards then I may go with the better offer instead of the first person to match my ISO?” That would strike me as more transparent.

 

Because we shouldn't make trading already harder than it is on this site. The vast majority of posts never get responses because when people have to go for specific asks, they already vastly inflate the value they bring and seek something unrealistic, and then the post just sits there and there's no feedback to improving the likelihood of a future trade. An auction helps set what something is actually worth.

If I want to trade a Weldworks Noche and am surprised no one is clamoring to jump on it for a Modern Times stout that I ask for, I have no idea why. Is my beer uninteresting for someone with MT? Is MT too limited? Is California already flooded with WW? Did I just post at the wrong time and no one was paying attention? Are ratios off?

An auction at least gets the conversation started, whereas right now trading stouts seems unnecessarily difficult here. And if I've failed with previous posts to get any attention with my specific asks, now I'll know how much people actually value my beer because the market corrects for any misconceptions about how amazing something is that I think I have.

 

I've been texting several people about this, and interestingly enough, everyone I've spoken to behind the scenes seems to be in support of leaving it as-is. I can tell you that at least some of these people have not, and probably will not voice their opinion here, because they don't want to get involved with thread drama.

The more I think about this, the more I question my own stance. I've always defined "auction posts" as offering a beer, and asking for best offers, with zero structure or concrete ISOs - "What do you have?" or "best offer wins". It seems like a number of people are taking a much more abstract meaning, and with that, it seems like trying to enforce whatever the goal here is would be a logistics nightmare, and something that would see other casualties beyond stopping "best offer wins" posts. I guess many people, myself included, are still unsure what exactly would constitute an "auction", and how that would affect these seemingly innocent trade posts.

 

@Todd

If I could give a personal example:

I recently traded a big bottle. I had an ISO list about 15 bottles strong. Nothing that would go 1:1. I got an insane amount of offers (dozens). 99% were for various combos of my ISOs, but all different. There was one offer that happened to have two bottles I said were "main preferences" ie. I'd like the trade to include these, but it isn't necessary. I went with this offer because of that. It was the most appealing - not value-wise (not by a long shot), but because of the specific combination. I responded to every single offer, and made it clear what my intentions and preferences were.

It sounds like many here would consider this an auction, and to me, that was just a trade, albeit one that blew up kinda big, but never with "auction" intentions.

 

This is not an auction, imo. You had a list of specific ISOs, albeit long, which could lead to you repeatedly shooting down offers of people that had some from the list, auction-esque, best offer. However, you got even more specific by giving a couple of preferred bottles from that list and if possible coupled together would be ideal. This gives people a couple idea of what could get the deal done. It didn’t say, best offer, whad’ya got, or any other bullshit. Which, I think posters should be ridiculed for since many don’t do any basic research on the beers and most importantly read the trading rules and tips on this site.

 

I think it is too big a pain in the ass for moderators unless it is a super obvious auction "Best offer takes my adjunct stout" type of post.

Personally I hate people who pull that kind of crap, but like the post from @SierraNevallagash above me, I bet innocent intentions get flagged if it becomes a "flaggable" offense.

No big opinion about what the site allows in this sense one way or another, but I always opt for taking work away from the mods and the site owners especially when there is an overarching cloudy / arbitrary / subjective definition of what an "auction" actually is.

Also, just because somebody has a beer that I want and I have a beer that they want, I should NEVER have to trade with them. There are some assholes in the trading forums and I wouldn't ever do anything to benefit them.

 

I don’t see any reason to ban them. All it would do is further reduce trading traffic on this site. In the end, if two people agree to a trade, who cares how they got there?

Maybe make an ISO board for people looking for something specific, and a FT board for people who just want to trade for the best offer? Anyone who is against auctions never has to go there.

 

I voted up keep them. There’s enough things to legislate, were big boys and if you don’t like where an offer is heading you just pull out and forget it. This has been going on for years anyway your just taking the obvious mystery away. When KBBS was the hottest greatest I know guys trying to trade well over 25x the actual cost that’s conservative from my memory. Allow it and guys to over pay or just say stuff it. Free market and all that a headache eliminated for you.

 

Exactly. It might even drive value backwards into the realm of semi reasonable. Sometimes things level out and work backwards too. I don’t do Whale hunts , so the the Limited forum hold zero interest for me. I’m more into $4$ and locals, I’ve got some of the most interesting beers doing BIFs. If you can find any PVW and you buy it, well you just won an auction, because that retailer most certainly jacked it to a price point where he’d part with it.

 

I voted to allow auctions mostly because I think it would be impossible to police and be kind of a slippery slope. The term auction would have to be well defined and air tight. Is a list for list type post an auction is a iso: beer a FT: list an auction is ISO; list Ft: Beer B an auction? What exactly constitutes an auction?

 

It would be a hassle for the mods to police it, allow it and let individuals decide to either participate or not.