Within the past couple of years I've brewed a few all-grain kettle soured beers, all of which became "ropey" during bottle conditioning. All recipes were a simple pilsner/wheat base that I kettle soured with lacto/or grains, went through a full boil, and then were fermented with sach and a house bug blend. My idea was to dial in a specific acidity quickly, while still developing a complex aroma and flavor from the brett. All the beers fermented out dry over a month or 2, not showing any signs of sickness until after being in the bottle for an additional 1-2 month's.The strange thing is I've used the house bug blend with dozens of other beers (not kettle soured) without any signs of ropiness. Is it possible there is something within the kettle souring procedure that can aid in the beer becoming ropey? Possibly some sort of by-product that stresses out the pedio? Any suggestions would be great. Thanks!
Here is a great resource....I haven't brewed my first sour yet but have read through this site.... http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus
Well, I guess that descriptor means the bugs are taking over? I always thought that referred to the colonies.
lol Yeah, it's very alarming the first time you see it. It tastes exactly like it should, just with a maple syrup consistency. I always assumed it had to do with the temperature I was bottle conditioning at. I thought maybe higher ambient temps caused the pedio to become ropey, but with all the beers being kettle soured, it can't just be a coincidence.
I am in the process of reading American Sours and the chapter I just read Mr. Tonsmeire wrote that Brett will break it down after a couple weeks. Why in almost all cases you see Brett used in conjunction with Pedo for this for this reason... Once the Brett begins to work on it after a period of time it will return to pretty much normal.....
So if I have your process, you kettle sour, boil to kill the bugs, and then add some blend that includes pedio? The biggest impact, of course, is that the wort is acidic at the start. I just would have thought if that had an impact on ropiness, it would be reported elsewhere and often.
Yeah exactly, that's my thought as well. My house blend has become potent enough that it sours within weeks instead of months so I probably won't be kettle souring anything else anytime soon. I just thought it was really interesting that the only incidents I had with ropey beer involved kettle sour's.
There's been a lot of discussion regarding whether or not pedio. sp. can break down their own exopolysaccharides and there seems to be agreement that they can due to their extracellular amylase enzymes. That said, it doesn't matter that much if multiple microbes are breaking down the EPS, it simply matters that it gets broken down. FWIW, this ropiness/EPS is produced during the microbe's growth phase, which is why it tends to be seen in bottle conditioned mixed microbe fermentations. Actually, any active yeast sp. will metabolize the diacetyl. With Brett. sp. being active the longest, they would simply be a better bet than sacch. or other yeast.
So, you're using the same procedures to bottle both kettle soured and cold-side soured beers and the only ones that are going ropy are the kettle soured ones? Is there a difference in how long you are fermenting the beers?
I have listened to Vinnie Cilurzo talk about his sour beers a few times, and lambic and Brett beers. Brett is a survivor, and will be around when the primary yeats have perished. That is why lambics have Pedio and Brett. They don't repitch yeast after three years in the barrel. This one was educational, and vey enjoyable. http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_resource/RRsour_beer_presentation.ppt
Definitely. Brett sp., in general, can tolerate lower pHs and because they grow more slowly and can use a variety of carbon sources, they tend to be active longer than other yeast sp. Thanks, man! LOVE listening to Vinnie.
