Rye Saison Recipe Critique

I would do a 15 min beta rest at 144F prior to bumping to Saach temps.

 

Since this conversation has already skewed towards brett in primary vs secondary (as well as pitching multiple strains) how much brett character would you expect pitching the brett along with a sacch strain?

 

Ed Grimley and the Corgi have a point. But isn't Brett a super yeast? With flavorless fermentation compounds? Agree to disagree!

Much of Chad's research is on Brett as a primary fermenter, which produces MUCH different flavor than adding at secondary or at bottling. He details the different flavor profiles of staggered ptiching in his worth-digging-out 2010 Zymurgy article, which includes some very good recipes (Baltic Porter with Brett primary ferment).

 

Not only is he talking about an all Brett primary, he talks about using multiple strains and getting the same results. It then follows that at a latter point in primary(before the yeast has completed fermentation) that Brett will still act like regular yeast. When i say at the end of fermentation, I'm not talking about how long your beer is sitting in the fermenter. I'm talking about how close you are to terminal gravity.

 

I've added brettanomyces at every possible stage of fermentation, and it has always had an impact on flavor.

 

You mean the part where he references how important strain selection is and how it is strain dependent and dependent upon what compounds are present from the other strains used to ferment with brett...

"In looking at the beers I've done at Crooked Stave. I know exactly the strains I'm using as I cultured and selected them from many sources. I have pitched a few strains at a time into primary and then after harvested from primary and used in a secondaryfermentation for our wood-aged Saison. I got almost the exact character in primary in the secondary beer. The wood-aged Saison tasted like the other primary fermented beers having fruity characteristics but not the funky. To me that shows the importance of strain selection. Those yeasts are behaving almost identically in primary as in secondary. Now I have selected my strains to be more fruit forward and exhibit less phenolic funkyness so I guess I should have expected that. I have found other strains which affect aroma and not as much flavor in more experimenting with secondary Saisons. It all depends on the yeast. Each strain I have behaves differently and from experiments that we are participating in at Avery, AC Golden, Epic and at Crooked Stave I'm always seeing that it is all about the strain and they will behave very similar given similar brewing techniques and understand of what compounds are or are not present for the Brett to play with."

He also goes on to say:

"I would say in my opinion the difference in flavors is not created by stressing due to sugar levels. Brett is perfectly happy with out sugar. It can just as easily metabolize ethyl alcohol and other nitrogen compounds as energy source so the lack of sugar does not stress Brett. But the compounds which exist in the first place will play the role in what flavors are produced and since active fermentation is not occurring it will be esterification and possibly phenolic derivatives being produced."

I'm done beating a dead horse, but you are more than welcome to continue to cite an article that doesn't support your claims.

 

Jeez, you would have thought I personally insulted you from your tone.

 

And then there was this presentation I sat in on. The beers went from bland to full of Brett character. I preferred the 3787 primary, and then Brett in secondary.
http://518124.cache1.evolutionhosti.../presentations/2008/GregDoss_BrettBrewing.pdf

 

I once bottled a patersbier with Brett that really dried out with 3787. It became so phenolic and band-aid-ey after 2-3 months in the bottle, it was undrinkable. When those phenols where broken down, the beer became ester-forward with light fruits and mild acidity. The evolution of the beer was amazing, all from 1/4 of a vial of Brett bruxellensus in 6 gallons.

 

That would actually make sense as to the differences in my experience with everyone else. I don't use secondary for most of my beers and if the onset of Brett flavors is around 5 weeks i probably would have drank it by then.

 

I've had brett characteristics develop in much less than 5 weeks.
Example: I just recently bottled an XX bitter clone. Half of the batch was bottled with no additional yeast (De Ranke yeast used in primary) and the other half received 1 drop of Orval dregs per bottle.
I tried one bottle of each, side by side, 2.5 weeks after bottling, and yummy brett deliciousness was already evident in the dosed beer.

 

Maybe it was a freak accident then. I will remake the recipe and see what happens after a longer conditioning process.