Sacred Profane Brewing Launching Summer 2022

Not according to the Wrong/Right example the TTB gives - the brewery's address wasn't enough.

You really think so? Can't say one way or the other, myself. Lots of people kinda "don't see" fine print like the word "type" or "style" on a beer label until they go looking for it.

And such legalities have been around for a long time in the US.

Although, the current rule at the TTB for the above style is:

Making "Pils/Pilsner/Pilsener" generic for US brewers, but not imports other than the Czech Republic.

 

I believe Chris’ grandparents are Polish immigrants.

 

Depends on the brewery. Modelo's website calls Modela Negra a "Munich-style Dunkel", but the Dos Equis website calls their Amber a "Vienna-style Lager". So either way it's kinda weird to reference "Mexican-style" when both of the prominent examples themselves reference back to the European inspirations.

 

Never had a US-brewed "craft" Mexican (style ) lager, but aren't most of them just standard AAL's with a touch higher IBUs, in the mold of Corona Extra and Modelo Especial, rather than in imitation of a dark or amber Mexican beer?

Well, those that don't add the time-saving "no produce dept. trip necessary" lime flavor.

I think that's a more modern, internet-website-era reference by the brewers/importers. In the 1980s when the Mexican beer boom happened, I don't think any of the amber & dark Mexican imports labeled them anyway other than with those terms or the Spanish equivalents like Oscura and Negra.

 

I can't speak to most of them, but the ones I've had from Massachusetts breweries (Lamplighter for one) have been more in the direction of a Vienna lager.

 

Chris is all about awareness/technique: the label change speaks to that, given the inversed side of the provided example

 

That rings a bell.

There’s also this from Brienne Allen’s pick six interview:

“There’s a Polish veterans club down the street that Chris and I sneak into sometimes, and they have these Polish lagers on there, straight from the country. Lojko tastes exactly the same—it’s a really great experience.”

 

Going to reply in the Northeast Lager Talk thread to avoid further sidetracking the thread.

 

So like…how’s the beer?

 

@Jbrews made two posts about his visits to Sacred Profane:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...drinking-now-2022.664092/page-98#post-7599013

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...drinking-now-2022.664092/page-99#post-7599998

Na Zdravi

 

Perhaps people are misunderstanding me. I must be doing a poor job of expressing myself. Brienne Allan has stated that her biggest concerns and fears (at the moment of the interview) were that they were having a hard time figuring out if they should market the beer as Czech lager. (Which is of course in stark contrast to the concerns people on BA were having - the 2 draft beer limit business model.)

My comments about Notch were ONLY regarding this topic and have nothing to do with why or how Notch would brew a certain beer. In terms of marketing, should Lojko be called a "Polish lager," a "Polish-style lager," an "American Lager," all of the above or something else? This question is what Sacred Profane are interested in wrestling with even if 99% of customers and industry folk are not. Personally, I respect the fact that they are making this a topic of conversation. My perspective on Notch is shallow, but I feel like they were the sort of brewery that also showed interest in that question... but for me (looking from the outside at beer cans) it looks like that interest has slipped away for them.

I don't know. I also don't think I would be able to do it any better than them. Maybe I wouldn't convince myself that what I was doing wasn't a variation on cultural appropriation in the first place though. That term has negative connotation so people don't like to think like that, but if it wasn't similar to appropriation then Sacred Profane wouldn't even be having this philosophical issue. I know my personality wouldn't take a carefree approach (shocking, I know), and clearly Allan is doing the same. I respect the fact that they are trying to do this with reverence and Czech participation. Some might like to think that this absolves the idea, but it really just makes it a better approach. I selfishly think it would be great if Allan doesn't find total happiness on the topic - not because I wish anybody hard times, but because she's asking herself hard questions and demanding responsibility of herself in this regard... and being open about it in the media. The beer world needs more of this.

I never even thought about this with regard to NEIPA labeling. A blind spot on my end for being too close to home. Ha.

Your quote regarding Pilsner did not include "Pils" though. I was aware of the German "Pils" convention regarding sensitivities in the European market, but I never thought about it in the context of imports to the US. Do you think this is a factor?

So people understand that this conversation isn't off-topic, Brienne had this to say:

... but she changed her desires after spending more time talking to Czech brewers on the topic. I was surprised by her initial interest. It seemed strange given her background... but I know I'm oversimplifying things.

 

Oh, shit. Yeah, that was my typo error. It should have been "Pilsen" not "Pils", the latter of which the TTB does consider generic - same as "Bohemian".

From Chapter Four of the Beer Beverage Alcohol Manual.

 

Let me expand on this by using a finite example... and then I hope I am strong enough to shut up about it. Take a look at 3 totally different approaches to the mlíko pour in the US:

I assume Notch uses the word mlíko for this. I believe you see the positives of this - an increased understanding of Czech beer culture. Brienne Allan sees a negative of this (Americans using Czech terms as if they were a Czech brewery) and wants to avoid it.

As a result, Sacred Profane has decided to use the word "foam" for this. They are taking a utilitarian approach, stripped of ornament, romance and culture.

Human Robot went in a totally different direction with their milktube term. They've Americanized it and brought it into their own culture. I wouldn't be surprised if Allan would express nausea over their milktube branded socks and their T-shirt with "polotmavy" written across it. Perhaps it could be argued that the Human Robot approach was the most successful in terms of generating awareness about the pouring method by making it their own and appealing to American consumers.

Of those three approaches, which would I be most drawn to as a customer? This is just me, but the Human Robot approach is a turn off... the Sacred Profane approach feels like it is devoid of context and completely odd as a result... and the Notch approach draws me in. This just speaks to what I personally find appealing.

Is this at odds with my applause of Sacred Profane bringing this all to the table? Not to me. I respect them for it and I think this isn't a black or white situation. Cheers.

 

I clicked this thread after Jbrews spoke highly of this brewery in WNEBAYDN and oh man this thread has been a wild ride. I was wondering why this thread is as long as it is, but I guess that's what happens when you go from nitpicking about the 2 beers on tap business model (Suarez does 1 beer on tap FWIW), to nitpicking about the tanks, to nitpicking about the days that they are open to nitpicking about the nitpicking.

Would someone mind giving a tldnr on why people are so hung up on the naming convention? I'm a layperson that only ever cared about consumption and never really paid much attention to whether something is an American lager, Czech lager, Polish lager, German lager or Lager lager. I'm not trying to knock the in-depth discussion or hand wave it away (this is a beer forum after all).

 

The head brewer at Sacred Profane (Brienne Allan) used to work at Notch brewing, who has done a lot to popularize the Czech terms for different foam level pours. At her new spot she has expressed concerns about cultural appropriation and they've opted to use English terms instead of the Czech terms. It's somewhat interesting because Sacred Profane has otherwise made as much effort as anyone in the states to replicate the Czech brewpub experience

 

As is mentioned above, Brienne Allen has discussed in the past that she does not want to culturally appropriate as regards the beers they are producing at Sacred Profane.

From my perspective the 'tricky' part is that there is a need to properly communicate your products with existing (and potentially new) customers. Beer consumers, generally speaking, want to know what a beer(s) is prior to ordering one. For the situation of the beer that is being branded as "Pale Lager" does that effectively communicate to you what sort of beer this is? It is broad terminology and for me I think of something like a Heineken when I see those words. Other potential terms which could be used for this beer:

• Bohemian (style) Pilsner
• Czech (style) Pilsner
• Světlé Výčepní (the Czech language for this sort of beer)
• other?

As a customer to Sacred Profane which terminology is 'best' for you?

Cheers!

 

Personally I fail to see the issue with using the English wording Czech Lager for a Czech-inspired, Czech style beer. While in the US Lager Beer seems to have become the favored name for the new beer brought by German immigrants in the 1840s and onwards, in Sweden and many other European countries the term used originally was Bavarian beer, in the local language. In Sweden it was called Bayerskt, Bajerskt, Baijerskt, Bäijerskt öl/öhl (spelling wasn't standardized back then), i.e Bavarian beer, or Bayerisches bier. By the 1880s the term lageröl, lager beer, began to replace the Bavarian moniker in most breweries.


One can note the marketing of both "Bayerskt öl", Bavarian beer, and "Engelskt öl", English beer, in the advertisement from the brewery Bjurholms above.



Here's a sales ledger for a Swedish brewery from October-December 1858 detailing sales of their beer at "bierstugan", a tavern whose name combines the German name for beer, bier, with the Swedish word for cottage, stuga. The deliveries are made up of four products: svagdricka (small beer), Svenskt öl (Swedish beer), Bayerskt öl (Bavarian beer) and Svenskt öl bout (Swedish beer bottled).

Even back then breweries and tavern keepers used foreign geographical names to market and sell their beer, and used foreign words to make their businesses stand out from the competition. To me the use of such foreign geographical names is an integral part to the history of lager beer brewing outside of Bavaria, and in my opinion I think an American brewery selling "Czech lager", or even "České ležák" isn't so much abusing a heritage as much as it is a continuation of one spanning over a century and a half.

What I would hope for however is that such a brewery would be serious in their approach, and I see no reason to doubt the sincerity of a brewery like Notch for example. As someone who appreciates a brewery going the extra mile to honor the history of lager beer brewing I wanted to put my two cents in.

 

Patrik, you are indeed correct that marketing lagers in America 'back in the day' using European terminology is a thing:

"One example is Pabst which branded one of their beers as “Bohemian” and this was a bestselling brand for them during the timeframe of the mid-1890’s to sometime in the early 1900’s."



https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pilsen_Beer

Na Zdravi

 

Good point, the popularity of Bohemian type lager resulted in a blooming of the practise also in America, which was joined by Bavarian beers by the late 1800s (in this respect the US seems to have had the opposite development to many European countries whereby the term lager beer was common from the start whilst "Bavarian" labeled beers became more common by the late 1800s as specialty brands).

 

If you want, you can go to Brienne Allan's comments on the "Born On 3rd" podcast from May 9th. The relevant segment is from 0:49 - 0:56. She speaks about the topic in multiple spots in that time range.