Saison fermentation temp

I wonder if the interest of a commercial brewery could make it worth the extra effort. Part of this plan involves starting a saison-focused commercial brewery. That's got to be easier than a letter campaign, right?

 

Oops... I should not have used the term "final gravity". I just meant that an apparent terminal gravity at, say, 65F, does not necessarily mean that fermentation won't restart if the bottles warm to 75F. This would not worry me much with Chico ale or a lager yeast, but with a saison yeast that likes warm fermentation...

I stand by my concerns, but yes, they were poorly phrased.

 

@MrOH @JackHorzempa
I contacted Lallemand and this was their response regarding belle saison and 3711.

 

@JackHorzempa @pweis909
Maybe white labs is trying to phase out yeast strains that are diastaticus variants, or minimize them, due to the liability involved.

 

Jason, you may already know this but White Labs produces yeast for the company Yeast Bay. In recent correspondence with Nick (of Yeast Bay) he informed me that:

“…Wallonian Farmhouse (component of Saison Blend II) and Dry Belgian Ale are PCR-verified to be diastaticus.”

It would seem that White Labs has no issues in producing diastaticus yeasts in their facility.

Or maybe we will read soon that these Yeast Bay strains have been discontinued?

Cheers!

 

All I know is Left Hand is suing over the presence of diastaticus in the pitches of cervesae that were used on their nitro milk stout. It wouldn't surprise me if white labs started taking precautions in their lab to prevent this in other pitches.

 

So, @MTbier, what was the OG, what yeast did you use, what is your current gravity reading, and how does it currently taste?

 

I actually had the same thought a few weeks ago when Drew’s podcast recognized problems related to diastatic wild yeast being resistant to some sanitation treatment. However, 585 did not come across to me as similar to 3711 in its attenuating ways. It also didn’t seem to have the stalling habit that I imagine could make DuPont strains tricky to propagate at commercial scale. I suspect the issue is demand.

On that topic, the Vault sales format seems like it could be problematic for any strain that does not “trend.” You got a yeast that you can push as an interesting new Neipa strain and it likely attracts customers. You got a strain for something obscure, without being able to allude to its use in some favorite commercial product, and, for good measure, it’s for a style that many think of as seasonal, well, it just might fail to generate demand over the course of a year. Clearly, the yeast is at fault for not knowing how to market itself in the modern homebrew era.

 

Well, it would appear that at the moment we are SOL as regards WLP585. I received the following e-mail from White Labs today:

"Hello,

Thanks for reaching out. But I do apologize, as the 585 has been officially retired. You are not the only one to reach out and lament the demise of this strain. I for one, also am saddened for the news.

Russell Kreindel

White Labs, Inc.

Sales/Customer Service

888-593-2785
www.whitelabs.com
www.yeastman.com

Non-Cheers to the discontinuing of WLP585!

@pweis909 @DrewBeechum

 

I really enjoy 3726(Blaugies) for my saison. What do you guys this of this yeast?

 

Assuming that White Labs does not reconsider their decision to stop producing WLP585 below are my Plan B(s):

1. I will re-double my efforts to purchase East Coast Yeast ECY08. I have brewed with this yeast in the past and it is indeed an excellent product. The ‘trick’ will be periodically monitor the Love2Brew website and hope to see this specific yeast is in stock and then order right away. The East Coast Yeast products are in scarce supply for homebrewers and to the best of my knowledge the only retailer is Love2Brew.

2. Nick of Yeast Bay suggested Yeast Bay Saison II as a ‘substitute’ for WLP585. I personally do not have any experience with this particular product but if I am unable to obtain ECY08 I am willing to give it a try. The good news is that there are a number of retailers which sell Yeast Bay products: https://www.theyeastbay.com/find-us/

Cheers!

@pweis909 @DrewBeechum

 

I previously discussed WY3726 in post #24 of this thread:

"I ended up brewing my annual Saison with Wyeast 3726 instead (it has been a long time since I brewed with this strain). This Saison turned out very good but it is a tad higher in isoamyl acetate (banana flavor) than I desire in a Saison; I do enjoy isoamyl acetate in Trappist/Abbey style beers though."

Cheers!

 

Regarding 3724 being "finicky...." I submit, based on 0% stalled batches in my house, that if you treat it properly, it's not:

- Make an appropriate starter, targeting at least 0.75M cells/ml/°P. Do not follow the dumbed-down, generic instructions on the pack. (Or if you do, don't complain that the strain sucks.)
- Use a nutrient blend in the boil.
- Oxygenate the wort with pure O2.
- Use fermentation temperature control. It doesn't have to be particularly warm (anything above about 68F will work), but I suspect some peoples' problems have occurred due to a drop in temp. You can increase temp to finish fermentation if you are in a hurry, but it's not really necessary.

Expect 3724 to ferment slowly. It just does (usually). It can take several weeks. Don't assume "slow" means "stalled." I suspect a lot of "stalled" reports are really just slow (i.e. normal for the strain) fermentations, without noticing the gravity coming down slowly but surely. (And then confirmation (bias) is just a quick google away. "Crank up the temp!" "Rock the carboy!")

Also, I've never done an open fermentation or otherwise relieved the pressure with this strain. I've even spunded in the keg to carbonate, up to about 50 psi, without a hitch. That doesn't sound to me like a strain that's overly sensitive to pressure. Maybe it is if you don't meet its modest requirements, and/or ferment in commercial sized (i.e. very tall) conicals.

 

Thanks for the tips, Jack. I never brewed with either of them, but will keep an eye out for them. If you beat me to it, let me know what you think. I'll do the same.

 

@VikeMan
what are the taste differences @65 for 7 week vs raising the temp and having it finish at 3 weeks?

 

Nice to know I am not alone in this.

 

What a shame about 585! I came here to see if it was diastaticus positive (I would still like to know), and come to find out it's been discontinued! Drinking a very, very tasty saison I brewed with it last year as I type this.

I guess that jar of slurry I harvested from my starter ~6 months ago just got a lot more valuable! I'll definitely try to resurrect it, and I'm so glad I thought to save some.

 

I urge you to contact White Labs and express your feelings. Based on their response to @JackHorzempa, I doubt they will change their mind, but they definitely won't if they don't hear from customers who would love to buy the yeast. Personally, I can't honestly tell them that I am such a customer, but I still think it's a shame for such a well-regarded yeast to go away.

[edited to clarify: it's not that I don't like the yeast, I've just never brewed with it, and I've only made one saison in my life]

 

All I can add, Belgian Saison is (was) a hell of a cider yeast. Having used it for over 10 years I can say with confidence it was the only strain that improved cider. -05 being the best stay out of the way cider yeast in my experience, Belgo Saison was the only yeast I know that added to fermented apple juice and made something better.

C'est la vie.

 

I used 585 for my last cider batch and I agree.