saison fermenting temp question

Yes, I wasn't really alarmed when it seemed stalled. I've used 565 and 3724 before and always manged 80%+ attenuation. The fermentation a never quite looks the same, which suggests batch to batch variability in the yeast and the process. I think if I could consistently replicate a fermentation with this yeast, I would really feel like a fermentation master

 

"I would really feel like a fermentation master" For some reason I thought of Donkey in one of the Shrek movies stating: "
I am the stair master!"

Peter, maybe you are indeed be the fermentation master! Why not!?!

Cheers!

 

If you have a cheap heating pad, like I have been known to use on my sketchy knees, you don't have to move the bucket. Just wrap the pad around it and plug in, maybe throw a towel or blanket over it if your fermentation space is cool. The main thing here is to watch your temperature closely so it doesn't get too hot and kill the yeast. As noted by others, you will eventually get there at 70F, with no loss of quality...but it might take a long time.

 

I'm a big Wyeast fan, am grateful for all they have done for homebrewers and love many of their strains (cleaner and more robust than the other big yeast supplier, IMO) but I will not be following this advice.

 

Jerry, that is indeed your choice. As I have I posted many times: Brew the beers you like and brew them the way you like".

Jess is both a Microbiologist and a homebrewer. He has brewed numerous Saison beers using 3724. It is your choice whether to brew per his suggestions.

Cheers!

 

And Dr. Oz has an MD and is almost universally regarded as a skilled surgeon... but I will not be getting medical advice from his TV show (this has nothing to do with his uncanny resemblance to Charlie Sheen's long lost twin brother).

Seriously, while I have not actually used 3724 in 5-6 years, I've used the dregs from a bottle of Saison Dupont many times and have had success starting my fermentation at 68F, letting it rise naturally to 72F and then putting the heat to it for a final temp of 78-81F. This has resulted in a final apparent attenuation of 92-95% and tasty beer. The definition of stuck/slow is important for context. Average grain to glass time for my above mentioned beers is about 3 weeks. Maybe I could be drinking it after 3 days at 90F... I will be more than happy to drink some of Jess's beer and be proven wrong if that opportunity arises.

 

I'll toss in a dissenting mention for saison yeast at lower temps. 3711 @ 62F with a simple grist and light late addition of willamette or fuggles w/low bitterness = delicious.

 

Jerry, I think that your experiences with Dupont dregs is different is different from most folks using Wyeast 3724. I personally have used 3724 multiple times and even with elevated fermentation temperatures (80's) they have never completed fermentation in less than 3 weeks. The fermentation times for me have been 4+ weeks. I have yet to conduct a fermentation schedule of 90 degrees F throughout with 3724 but Jess Caudill has 4 times. Since your experiences have been with Dupont dregs vs. 3724, would you agree with me that that Jess Caudill has more experience here specifically with respect to 3724?

Cheers!

Jack

 

I agree that Jess probably knows what he's talking about re: 3724 in 2014, though Phil Markowski in Farmhouse Ales opines that 3724 will get there in a reasonable time at lower temps. Admittedly, that was written almost 10 years ago, when both Dupont and Wyeast products might have been significantly different from the present situation. Certainly, Dupont dregs are different from 3724, but Wyeast has been claiming that the two will make almost identical beers; the burden of proof is on them.

My personal preference is to grab some yeast from Dupont Avril or Blaugies Saison D'epeautre and finish the fermentation at about 77F. Would a few days at 90F improve things? Maybe, but I live on a mountainside in VT. Finishing at 90 would cost time and money, and what I'm doing now works well enough to make beers that my friends and I like, and that score around 40 points in competitions.

 

Jerry, there is no doubt in my mind that you make high quality Saison beer using Dupont dregs.

There has been reporting that the Dupont strain is more accurately multiple strains (4 strains?). I have corresponded with Drew Beechum on this topic and he is of that opinion.

I agree 100% with your statement of: “Dupont dregs are different from 3724”.

So, brewing with Dupont dregs is different from brewing with 3724.

Cheers!

 

So there you have it. Brewing with Dupont dregs is different from brewing with 3724. And Jess Caudill is the expert on homebrewing with 3724, because he has done it four times.

 

“And Jess Caudill is the expert on homebrewing with 3724, because he has done it four times.”

I would have worded that differently: Jess Caudill is expert at using 3724 because it is a Wyeast product and he has homebrewed with it personally 4 times.

The Wyeast scientists interact with commercial brewers and homebrewers and obtain feedback on their yeast from numerous brewers. They obtain knowledge from both this interaction and personal brewing.

Cheers!

 

Nevertheless, I would be willing to bet that several regulars on just this forum each have more experience brewing with 3724 in small batches than he does. I'd take their collected and individual experience over his any day. The fact that he works at Wyeast doesn't make his experience any more valid in this context. And the fact that he may (or may not) talk to brewers to "obtain feedback" is no more impressive or valid than the opinions of people who "obtain feedback" from other brewers on the forum. Wyeast makes yeast, not (for the most part) beer.

Having said that, I imagine the guy is very, very bright. And if I wanted to know how to count cells, test for viability, propagate most efficiently, or maintain near sterile culture conditions, I'd be inclined to ask someone like him. But for homebrewing advice, I'd ask homebrewers with a lot of experience.

 

Seeking advice on homebrewing is not an either/or proposition:

· Seek advice from experienced homebrewers

· Seek advice from brewers/microbiologists

It’s all good!

Cheers!

 

1.003 is average?!?!

 

For me when I say 3724 I mean stepped-up DuPont dregs. Reviewing my notes:
Just racked to keg my latest Blaugies/DuPont combo at 1.003
Previous DuPont was 1.000, split batch with Blaugies at 1.002
Before that was pure DuPont at 1.002
Before that was DuPont/Hennepin combo at 1.004

Hmmm, I count four brews . . . now what does that make me?

 

Having just read the farmhouse ales book and still debating my first HB saison. How long do most stay in secondary, and do folks let it age for 6 months to a 1.5 years? Kind of confused myself.
going to read this 1 next. American sour beers, and I been reading this guys web site, great info.
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/bottle-conditioning-with-brett-belgian.html
he wrote that book, interesting info on fermentation temps in that article, they split the wort and each went there own way.
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/10/dark-orange-rosemary-saison.html

thinking about making 1 regular and 1 dark....sorry to jack the thread.

1 day I will get brave and make 1

 

No need to do secondary at all if you're doing a straight saison yeast without Brett or other bugs. In my experience, even when mixing Saccharomyces and Brett in primary, the combination takes it down to bottling gravity in 3-4 weeks (1.000-1.002). If doing Sacch. primary and then a Brett and/or wild secondary, a few months in secondary is probably all that's required, as from there it'll generally reach terminal gravity and you can let it further develop in the bottle under pressure, where the Brett tends to work faster. Getting into a keg for secondary and allowing some pressure (though not too much) to build up will also work.

In my experience with mixed fermentation saisons with Brett and lactic acid bacteria, I think they're still best overall when consumed within a year or so, or they start to lose some of that crispness and underlying hoppiness. They don't fade too much after that, but I like them right around 6-12 months when the saison character is still apparent but funk and some acidity are there as well.

 

thanks. first goal is making one near as to dupont as possible. so many options but I want to focus on my favorite.

 

That should be easy . . . nothing but pilsner malt, DuPont yeast, and some noble hops. Because of the ferm temp it is easy to keep this one in the house, less need of a ferm fridge. For my last pure DuPont brew I kept 1 gallon in a carboy with Orval dregs. I am new to adding Brett, so wanted to start small. BTW, there's some really weird chemistry going on in the 1 gallon'er.

Related to your earlier comment: I find cold conditioning improves the taste of Saison (at least with the DuPont yeast). Initially the taste is nothing spectacular, so I lager the beer (upper 30s) for almost a month. Nothing scientific here, but taste is noticeably better. I guess in general all Belgian brews improve with aging . . . so don't be in a rush.