saison fermenting temp question

thanks and that backs up what I read in that book, thanks for the real world experience. did yours taste like Dupont?

 

Taste is similar but haven't done a side-by-side yet. I did get inspired by DuPont Cuvee (dry hopped) and added 1.5 oz of Citra to a batch. This is probably not according to style, but the results were nice.

 

My Saison beers typically have an OG of around 1.060. I always make a starter when using liquid yeast. I would recommend that you make a starter if using 3724 since it can be a fussy yeast to deal with.

Cheers!

 

I just took a hydrometer sample. My saison is down to 1.008, from 1.056. Tastes like the best saison I ever made. Uncarbonated, the taste promises to rival my two favorites, the legendary one from Dupont and Swamp Head.

 

IMO nothing is more important than pitching the correct amount of healthy yeast (regardless of the type). So yes, this pretty much calls for a starter. Run your numbers through yeastcalculator.com to compute the number of cells needed. It will even tell you what size starter is needed and how to make it.

Absolutely. There are probably those who don't pitch the required number of cells, but the danger of underpitching /unhealthy yeast is reduced ester formation, poor attenuation, and overall decreased fermentation speed.

I currently have 3787 on the stir plate. My supplier had this yeast dated Jun 19 and Aug 7 (I asked). I coerced them into shipping the Aug yeast. Put these dates in the calculator above and you can see the difference. You never know if the yeast are alive until you pitch them (I've had two failures). With a starter you know this before your beer is at risk. This is a long read, but if you understand these two articles you've got it made.

 

Peter, sounds like great progress!

I recently went to my LHBS to buy ingredients for a Sasion. I asked if they had East Coast Yeast ECY-08: the answer was no. I then asked if they had the White Labs Saison III (WLP585): the answer was no. I then asked if they had 3724 and that was a yes. So, I purchased 3724.

As you can read above, Wyeast 3724 is not my first choice but I do like the resulting beer that it makes; just not a fan of it's fussy (read: slow) fermentation characteristics.

Cheers!

Jack

 

Agree to the importance of proper yeast handling and pitching with all beers, though I would say that, especially when using a starter of active, healthy yeast, I've had no problem at all taking pitching rate down to 70-75 million cells / mL / degree Plato fro saisons, which is roughly 3/4 the standard quoted pitching rate for ales. (Although I think this is actually what yeastcalculator.com recommends, so not an issue with using them, but something to keep in mind, as I think others like Mr Malty stick to the 1m / mL / *P.)

EDIT (posted too early): This has given an active, healthy fermentation, and I like the increased esters, as I prefer fruity as opposed to phenolic saisons. For those who prefer the pepper and spice, probably not the best advice, however. For those, I go with a slight overpitch and also do full oxygen, and then ferment a bit lower. For increased fruity esters, I generally less than "optimal," doing about 30 seconds of pure oxygen in 5 gallons of a 1.040-45 beer.

I also use double the recommended yeast nutrient for increased FAN, based on Markowski's recommendation in Farmhouse Ales.

 

I've never been able to score East Coast yeasts or the WLP585. I see that one of my suppliers has started to stock Gigayeast and there are two saison yeasts and a blend. The descriptions of the two sound like 3711 and 3724, so I just decided to actually go with 3724. I'm getting interesting fruit flavors (tropical? pineapple? melon?), a little phenolic, with a light sweetness balanced by tartness. I wish there was a little more of the Hallertau coming through, but there is enough for me to know its there.

 

Below is from the Mr. Malty FAQ:

“You might have heard that when using yeast harvested from a previous fermentation, the optimal pitching rate for ales is 6 to 10 million cells/ml and 10 to 15 million cells/ml for lagers. That is a generally accepted ballpark, but it doesn't take into account the starting gravity of the wort. Higher gravity worts require more yeast and lower gravity worts require less. You want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. In his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques, George Fix states that you need to pitch 0.75 million cells per milliliter for an ale and 1.5 million cells per milliliter for a lager. While these rates are for repitching yeast harvested from fermentation, I have found that they work well for both repitching yeast and when using laboratory cultured yeast that has been subjected to less than optimal conditions since leaving the manufacturer.

Here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato.”

So, you can see that Mr. Malty discusses the value of 0.75 million (vs. 1 million). The FAQ also mentions that George Fix came up with the assumed value of 0.75 million cells for the case of re-pitching yeast from a previous ferment.

Using a Wyeast Smack Pack or a White Labs vial is not a re-pitch situation. The value of 0.75 million cells is a conservative value for the case of using non re-pitched yeast (i.e., a Wyeast Smack Pack or White Labs vial).

Cheers!

 

Please tell us the correct pitch rate for non re-pitched yeast. Thanks.

 

Peter,

The flavor profile that I have consistently obtained from 3724 is a very pleasant blend of fruity (esters) and spicy (phenols). I have also obtained similar flavor profiles from using ECY-08 and WLP585. I prefer the flavors of ECY-08/WLP585 and those beers complete primary fermentation in less than 2 weeks: so these yeast strains are a win-win for my palate. Having stated that, 3724 is very, very nice too!

A Saison yeast strain I am contemplating trying as well is Yeast Bay Saison Blend; it sounds tasty as well:

“Yeast Bay Saison Blend

8.50

A blend of two unique yeast strains isolated from beers that embody the saison style, this blend is a balance of the many characteristic saison flavors and aromas. One yeast strain is a good attenuator that produces a spicy and mildly tart and tangy beer with a full mouthfeel. The other yeast strain is also a good attenuator that produces a delightful ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest and imparts a long, dry and earthy finish to the beer. Together, they produce a dry but balanced beer with a unique flavor and aroma profile.

Temperature: 68-80 ºF

Attenuation: 76 - 82%

Flocculation: Medium – Low”

Cheers!

Jack

 

Below are standard pitching rates as detailed on the Wyeast website:

Standard Pitching Rates for Ales (Pitching & Fermenting > 65 degrees F):

· < 1.060: 6.00 Million Cells/ml

· 1.061 – 1.076: 12.00 Million Cells/ml

· >1.076: 18.00 Million Cells/ml

Cheers!

 

So a wort of 1.059 should get 6 million cells per ml, and a wort of 1.061 should get 12 million cells per ml. And you believe this.

Seriously, what's the best rate in cells per ml per degree plato? You never miss a chance to tell everyone that 0.75 million cells per ml per degree plato is too much, but you never offer an actual rate. The wyeast recommendations are dumbed down and are not a rate at all.

 

I have a newb question: How the hell do I figure out the gravity of my starter wort under the DME Calculator?

Beersmith gives me an assumed original gravity of my wort which tells me the amount of yeast cells that I need (in total) and I know the manufactured date of my 3711 smack pack which tells me how many assumed viable cells I should have with just the smack pack alone but I haven't a clue how to calculate the gravity of my starter and further how much DME Ill need to add to how much water to get the correct amount of viable cells it tells me that Ill need.

Am I missing something there?

 

On the Beersmith toolbar select "Tools", then click on"Yeast Starter". This will open a page where you input your parameters and it tells you the starter size. Usually you want the starter gravity to be 1.040 (or slightly less) which calls for a 10:1 ratio of water to DME (i.e. 1L water and 100g DME).

A much easier way is use yeastcalculator.com . . . more flexibility and intuitive. You input your wort gravity/size and date of yeast and it tells you want you need. Then it allows you to build up to three starter steps with lots of options on shaking or stirring. It has a mini-calculator on the left that tells you how much DME to add to each starter size. I use Beersmith for recipe formation but yeastcalculator for my starters (Brewers Friend also has an excellent free calculator).

 

3711 is a beast. I did a pilsner/saaz smash (6%abv and 30abu bittering only). I pitched at 70F and let it rip. Probably some of my finer work. It came out bone dry.

 

Shameless plug: Another option is BrewCipher. Its recipe and yeast starter calculations are integrated. So once you have entered your recipe and yeast age on the recipe tab, the starter size and amount of DME needed are automatically calculated and displayed. No flip-flopping between apps or re-typing redundant information.