Saison Recipe

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by TastyAdventure, Apr 25, 2014.

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  1. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    Need help making a Saison. I am going for light body, medium dryness, and some good funk to it. I really don't know where to start. I have seen some people include a pound or two of wheat, others use sugar to dry it out ( I'm not sure I get the point since almost all Saison yeasts are Beast!)

    I did a gallon experiment batch here I used Belle Saison yeast by Danstar. Ferm temp probably didn't get above 75, which is why I assume there's not a LOT of funkiness to it. It was pretty good, but I'm hoping for something better with my 5 gallon batch.
    I like Saison Diego by Green Flash and Standard by Prairie... Have yet to try DuPont, I may have to go splurge on it this weekend.

    I would like to go "all naturale" and not use any spices etc... I know it's kind of silly but that's what I want for my first Saison..

    Any advise/full solid recipes would help. Thanks
     
  2. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (853) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    All grain or extract? Saison yeast != funky

    For all grain try something simple,

    ~10# pils malt and a continental hop at 60 min and 5 min (relatively low level of IBUs), no spices. The Dupont yeast is great just leave it alone and it will finish. Easy drinking summer beer.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  3. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (165) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Best Saison I ever brewed was 100% pilsner malt, bittered to 30 IBUs, finished with a few oz of styrians, and fermented with 3724. It went from 1.060 to 1.000.

    Explain what you're looking for when you say "funk".
     
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  4. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Zealot (544) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I use this grain-bill as a base...I have changed up the base malts, hop additions, the adjuncts, and used different Saison yeasts. The grain ratios stay the same, however, and all have been fantastic.

    If you want it funky, ferment at 70° (or greater) ambient and let her rip.

    http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/
     
  5. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (165) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Why use cara malt of any kind in a Saison? Seems out of place to me, personally.
     
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  6. pointyskull

    pointyskull Initiate (146) Mar 17, 2010 Illinois

    My most recent saison was simple but delicious, and a fairly high ABV:

    12 lb 2-row UK pilsner
    2 lb flaked oats
    1 oz magnum (60 min)
    3711
     
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  7. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Zealot (544) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I don't know "the why," honestly. It seems to work though.
     
  8. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,083) May 21, 2010 Texas

    You CAN'T make a decent saison without crystal malt. Same as IPAs. Everyone knows that.

    <runs away>
     
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  9. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Funk in Saison usually means the use of Brettanomyces. I suggest a package of WY5112 Brett Brux at ~60% attenuation.
     
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  10. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Champion (863) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    Add some flaked oats or something that will leave a tiny bit of body and pitch some brett. If you want funk you want brett. in most cases.

    I used Pils, White Wheat, and GNO's in my saisons. Nelson or something fruity and 3711. I have some ECY 14 to use this year for my "white wine saison".
     
  11. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,227) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado

    My last saison was an equal mix of wheat and pils with 5% aciduated for a little bite. I fermented with the dupont strain and threw brett brux trois, pitched both together. The beer is dryhopping now, but the last taste I took had a nice tartness, some belgian phenols and a lot of funk. I like what bbt brings to a saison and am thinking about harvesting this yeast for future saisons this summer.
     
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  12. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Champion (863) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    brett trois has that tart citrusy note to it, that I agree, pairs perfect with a saison.
     
  13. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (810) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    For a straight ahead saison, I like to use something like
    70-80% pale base malt (I love using golden promise, but pils is traditional)
    20-30% other base malt (vienna, munich, rye, really like the weyermann dark wheat, etc.)
    mash low and slow, I tend to do an overnight mash starting at 152, but the temp obviously drops over the course of the night
    FWH to the upper 20s with something low to mid alpha
    Heavy whirlpool/steep addition of an american version of a noble hop
    Whatever saison yeast you like.
    Light dry hop with whatever I used for the steep.
     
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  14. firstthenlast

    firstthenlast Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2013 Massachusetts

    100 percent pilsner to 1050 with 3711 makes a dilicious saison
     
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  15. ventura78

    ventura78 Initiate (0) Nov 22, 2003 Massachusetts

    If you like Boulevard tank 7, try this



    77.5% pale malt
    20% pregelatinized corn flakes
    2.5% malted wheat

    hops

    magnum 6 ibu at 98 C
    Simco 5 ibu at 15 after beginning of boil
    Amarillo 15.7 ibu at 5 before end of boil
    Amarillo 10.7 ibu in the whirlpool
    dry hop Amarillo .089 kg/bbl

    Fg = 1.009
     
  16. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Although the Dupont strain (WY3724, WLP 565) will ferment things pretty dry, some have found it finicky, sometimes stalling. Some try to speed it along with high temps and sugar. Some just wait it out. Some other saison strains have a reputation for ripping through things quickly.
     
  17. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,248) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Premium

    I am 1 week in on a split ferment of 1.037 OG Saison. Both down to 1.007-1.008 today. 8# Pale Malt, 4# Flaked Rye, 2# MFB Munich. In oz 1:2:1 Calypso, Crystal, Amarillo @ 15mins, and same for 30 min whirlpool @170℉. Fermented half with Apostasy Confluence starter (Wit and Brett) other half got 3726+3725+Cascade Lacto+Brett B, L, C,Orval, Trois, and a plum isolate dubbed Brett F. Both will get 2oz each Amarillo DH. So far Fruity nose, rye mid palette and Phenols, bitter finish.

    Have also had great success with 3724+Orval @ bottling.

    3726 is nice but doesn't finish as low as I'd like and if you over pitch it is very muted.

    3725 is great with spicing.

    Gotta have Brett if you want funk, Orval is great for that.
     
    od_sf likes this.
  18. mattbk

    mattbk Devotee (418) Dec 12, 2011 New York
    Industry

    Been blending 3724 and 3711. I don't love the 100% 3724 version of the saison I brewed, definitely brings the funk but missing some the fruitiness I'm looking for. Did a 90/10 3724 to 3711 saison a while back, came out very nice but maybe just a bit too fruity. Thinking about backing this off a bit, maybe 92/8 next batch. Oh yeah, took me 42 days at > 90 deg F to finish my 100% 3724 beer as well. The 90/10 took me 10 days.
     
  19. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    I recommend trying 3724 + harvested Dupont (Avril is great for this). Dupont apparently is 4 separate strains, while 3724 is an isolate of the main fermenting strain. I've gotten more complexity and fruitiness from doing this, and it seems to finish more quickly as well.
     
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  20. mclaughlindw4

    mclaughlindw4 Initiate (0) Jul 2, 2009 Maine

    +1 for orval dregs at bottling. I had great success with this on my last two saisons. Just need to make sure you get it really dry. My FGs were 1.001 and 1.005 for the two beers. I carbed at 2.3 volumes and the beer is perfect right now. I had read a lot about people saying you could get bottle bombs this way, but never read anyone saying they actually had, so I went ahead and did it. The fact that the beer was so dry made me feel like I would be fine though and I was.

    Plus it means you get to drink orval on bottling day!
     
  21. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,452) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Have you made a normal strength saison using just harvested and stepped up Avril dregs? I'm curious as to how the taste was, compared to 3724.
     
  22. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Disciple (328) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Another simpleton here. 100% Pilsner, 3711. About 20 IBU using any hops you want to get rid of. I'll sometimes use 5% table sugar, which consistently brings my FG down to about 1.000. Tart, spicy, and super refreshing when carbed to about 2.7 vols CO2 and served wicked cold (my preferred way to serve a Saison).
     
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  23. kingjohnh

    kingjohnh Zealot (551) Nov 3, 2009 New Mexico
    Trader

    I saw that FATC1TY mentioned a white wine saison and I'm in the early planning stages of getting a recipe together for this as well. Plan on soaking lightly toasted oak spirals/cubes in Chardonnay and then adding to the secondary. I'm thinking a Chardonnay that is juicy and a little on the sweet side would be perfect. Anyone use a particular Chardonnay that worked well??
     
  24. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    I have not. Plan on doing so this year but haven't seen Avril anywhere yet.
     
  25. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    What temp do you use for 3711?
     
  26. Ilanko

    Ilanko Initiate (147) Aug 3, 2012 New York

    As far as my experience gos, 3711 is excellent choice. My last Saison made with 3711, after 3 days add wlp0300.
     
  27. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,637) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    3711 is a workhorse of a yeast; it is not finicky and it will take you down to near 1.000 in a short timeframe. While 3711 is a good performer, it has been my personal experience that this yeast produces a somewhat one-dimensional beer with spicy flavors being dominant.

    I prefer a Saison that has a balance of fruity & spicy. My preferred yeast strains are WLP585 and ECY08. WY3724 makes a nice Saison but be prepared to be patient; the last time I brewed with that yeast it took 4-5 weeks at temperatures > 80 degrees F.

    Another yeast strain I like is WY3726.

    Cheers!
     
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  28. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Disciple (328) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    I let 3711 ferment at room temperature - typically high 60s in my basement. In my experience, it typically goes about 5 degrees above ambient for the first day or so.
     
  29. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    Thanks for all the input. Has anyone used Belle Saison by Danstar? Like I mentioned, I did, but I didn't ramp up the temp like I think I should have.
     
  30. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Ever thought about 3711 primary -> Brett Drie secondary bulk condition?
     
  31. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,083) May 21, 2010 Texas

    3711. The Beast. It's what they used as a primer for the manhattan project. :grimacing:
     
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  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,637) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    No I have not.

    Cheers!
     
  33. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Defender (606) Nov 6, 2007 California

    I hate 3711. Makes overly phenolic, one-dimensional beers in most cases. Prefer Ardennes or Belgian Saison strains to it.
     
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  34. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    Yes, I've used it once. Very similar flavor profile to 3711. Also beastly like 3711.
     
  35. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    I share your preference of these two strains to 3711 (and also to Belle Saison, which seemed to me pretty similar to 3711, as od_sf mentions). I don't hate 3711, but it lacks finesse -- just rips through the gravity points and leaves a 1-dimensional flavor, as you suggest.
     
  36. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,637) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    What I posted previously: “While 3711 is a good performer, it has been my personal experience that this yeast produces a somewhat one-dimensional beer with spicy flavors being dominant.”

    No love for me Peter!?!:slight_frown:
     
  37. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Champion (863) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    I didn't use any oak in mine. It just had a berry like flavor/aroma from the GNO's and the Nelson hops I used. I think I used a little Belma in it too, but it didn't give me much of anything.

    The idea of oaking it sounds pretty good, would probably work well in a saison with some brett and a little tartness.
     
  38. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    It was bullettrain's professed hatred of the yeast that caught my attention, because even though I prefer the others that I mentioned, I can't bring myself to proclaim hatred for 3711. I guess I could have quoted you as well to document the phenolic nature of 3711, but sometimes I don't read every post. No disrespect intended. In fact, when it comes to recipe forumulation, I think you and I are often on the same wavelength. Note the similarities in our grist percentages in the altbier thread.
     
  39. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,637) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Ah, I feel better now.:slight_smile:

    I also would not proclaim hatred for 3711. In fact I am considering brewing a hoppy Amarillo Saison using 3711; I figure that the 3711 will bring spiciness to the party while the Amarillo will bring Citrus flavors to the party.

    Cheers!
     
  40. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    3711 flavor wise is my least favorite of the Wyeast saison strains (3726 -> 3724 -> 3711) however, I've had nice results using it along with Brett B. Try 3711 with dregs from a couple bottles or Orval a few days in. Nice, complex flavors. A touch of brett funk complements 3711 nicely.
     
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