Saison with Brett - Medicinal Flavor

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Jmamay22, Nov 30, 2014.

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  1. Jmamay22

    Jmamay22 Initiate (0) Sep 11, 2006 New York

    I recently taste tested and measured the gravity of a couple of long term beers I brewed. Saisons with brettanomyces are some of my favorite beers to buy so I thought I would try my hand at brewing them myself.

    First beer brewed on 6/7/14 with WLP565. Pitched WLP653 in secondary. Gravity was down to 1.001, but the flavor had a very unpleasant medicinal flavor. Similarly brewed a saison with rye using East Coast 08 and the East Coast Dirt Dozen blend in the secondary. That beer brewed on 10/1 has a similar medicinal flavor.

    I have brewed some sours and clean beers since and before both that have tasted fine, which makes me think an infection is unlikely. The saison and brett combination seems to be elusive for me. Any ideas what would cause this medicinal flavor? It isn't full on Band-aid terrible, but it is noticeable.
     
    #1 Jmamay22, Nov 30, 2014
  2. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I'd suspect your water, but it could also be an issue with your mash/sparge pH. If you use municipal water, there are varying levels of chlorine/chloramine, and it could be that when you brewed these beers they were higher than normal. This hinges on whether you treated your water, of course.

    A separate issue would be improper pH. If you used large amounts of wheat in your grist, it would have raised your pH considerably...which could have aided in the production of the phenols associated with what you describe.

    Also, any residuals from iodine or chlorine based cleaners/sanitize-rs can cause this issue.

    EDIT:

    One other thing, which I have no experience with, is that if you by chance added lactic acid to these beers to up the sourness you might be getting the medicinal flavor from this. However, there does seem to be some debate on this point.
     
    #2 JohnSnowNW, Nov 30, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  3. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    It may just be a transient Brett-related phenol. I've experienced this with secondary Brett fermentations when sampling the beer early. I'd wait it out.
     
    #3 jae, Nov 30, 2014
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  4. Jmamay22

    Jmamay22 Initiate (0) Sep 11, 2006 New York

    No wheat in the grist. Just pilsner and rye malt. It could be the water though I have brewed a couple rauchbiers without issue, which I believe are sensitive to chlorine. I carbon filter my water

    Interesting about the lactic acid note. I typically use lactic acid to lower the ph of my mash into the proper range. I've used it with just about every pale beer I brew without issue. Used a similar amount for these.

    Hopefully it is the Brett related phenol noted above. I was not aware this is a known issue.
     
    #4 Jmamay22, Nov 30, 2014
  5. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I think it might depend on the type of carbon filter, such as using GAC filters, and then you'd still have the issue that they might not remove it as they are failing/aging.

    As for the lactic acid, I think it's more an issue when you use it as an additive to sour the beer, rather than the amount necessary to control pH...but like I said...this is beyond my experience.
     
    #5 JohnSnowNW, Nov 30, 2014
  6. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    Damn, JP. :slight_smile:
     
    #6 inchrisin, Dec 1, 2014
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  7. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    A five month old sour is still very young. It might take another year and a blend before this becomes world-class. :slight_smile: RDWHAHB.
     
    #7 inchrisin, Dec 1, 2014
  8. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    It sounds like you brew often enough to rule out your water issues, so I would guess the medicinals are brett related. It may change over time, but maybe not. You could be stuck with gross tasting beer!

    Sorry. I had intended to offer words of encouragement, but I was just reading about Brett spoilage in wine, and I was musing how brett could be considered delicious by some beer enthusiasts and anathema by wine enthusiasts. It was interesting that among the wine writers, there didn't seem to be a "wait it out" mentality, no one suggesting that mousy, barnyard, and band aid flavors will transform into deliciousness with a little more age. The attitude was that if you taste hints of brett infection, drink it up before it gets worse. It just made me think that sometimes when a beer goes south, it might stay there.
     
    #8 pweis909, Dec 1, 2014
  9. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    Taste any recent young Fantome: smoky, rubbery, medicinal. Wait 2-4 years on that 'tome? Magic.
     
    #9 jae, Dec 1, 2014
  10. Jmamay22

    Jmamay22 Initiate (0) Sep 11, 2006 New York

    I guess I will wait it out and see what happens. At this point I'm only tying up a fermenter. Not a huge loss. Have to try another batch.

    Any recommended commercially available saison yeast and brett pairings?
     
    #10 Jmamay22, Dec 1, 2014
  11. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    WLP saisonI and brett brux trois work great.
    Also Ive had medicinal and mineral phenols that come and go with brett. I let it ride. They eventually clean up.
     
    #11 SFACRKnight, Dec 2, 2014
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