Saison with brett

I'd keep the grain bill simple , mash high and let it ride for 4 plus months. Based on what I've read about the strain it should provide you with plenty of funk and complexity. Good luck

 

Here is what I did for a Brett Saison

http://fermentologist.blogspot.com/2013/05/no-love-lost.html

 

I have bottled with Brett and gotten quite a bit of funk. The FG was 1.005 on that beer. @OldSock recently stated in his Zymurgy article on mashing for sour/wild beers that the funky character from Brett is produced from it transforming phenols, so you would want to mash for phenols. He recommends for higher funk to add a ferulic acid rest at 113*F (for a Hefe this rest is about 10 minutes for the clove phenol). I would go with no sugars, Pils, Wheat, Munich is a good combo (try dark wheat and dark Munich), mash at 113, then jump up to the low to mid 150s.

 

A clarification question:

Conducting a ferulic acid rest results in ferulic acid. For Hefeweizen beers the yeast ‘transforms’ the ferulic acid to 4-vinyl-guaiacol (4VG) which is a phenol (which has a clove flavor).

Below is something I found via a quick web search:

“4-VG is produced from ferulic acid (derived from barley malt) using the enzyme ferulate decarboxylase. Only certain strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (brewer’s yeast) have the capability to make this enzyme. 4-VG has a phenolic (TCP) or clove-like aroma. The clove-like aroma is characteristic of German weizenbier and some Belgian ales and is due to levels of 4-VG between 0.4 - 6 parts per million.”

http://brewingreality.blogspot.com/2010/01/flavour-compound-of-week-4-vinyl.html

So, I guess the ‘trick’ is to select the proper Belgian Ale yeast strain that produces the enzyme ferulate decarboxylase? Do you know which Belgian Ale yeast strains have this capability?

If you don’t select the proper Belgian Ale yeast strain then I personally don’t see the point of conducting a ferulic acid rest.

Cheers!

 

@JackHorzempa good point. Anyone know what the Sacc strain in this blend is?

 

What about a little acid malt? In the presence of lactic acid, Brett can make other esters to boost the fruitiness of the beer . . . plus the low mash pH would up the crispness of the final product (a proper saison yeast will dry the beer out just fine).

My usual saison grain bill:

2-row 80%
Wheat 10%
Oats 7%
Acid 3%

If you want to "feed" the Brett, you could add some dextrins (dextrin malt) or mash high. I'm also a dreg-pitcher, as I've had great success by upping the biodiversity of my beers. Pitch them all! I'd probably do the 670 as primary and dregs in secondary to a stable TG.

 

@jae, I also use about 5% acid malt for my saisons and brett beers, but wasn't aware it can help brett produce fruity flavors. Good to know!
I also encourage everyone to check out @OldSock 's zymurgy article, so much awesome info about funky beers in there.
Lastly, @JebediahScooter, my first brett saison was with wlp670. It's been sitting for 2 years now and still has ZERO funk. My og was 1.070, finished at 1.010. I recently did another brett saison using Brett Brux Trois and wlp565 and got insane amounts of phenols, and the funk is already getting where I like it. I would absolutely pitch dregs with that wlp670.
EDIT: a good friend and fellow beer geek actually though my wlp670 saison was a hefe because of the amount of banana it threw.

 

“Pitching -- my initial plan is to brew this to around 1.050-1.055 and pitch the vial of WLP670 with no starter to A) avoid throwing off the blend's ratio of sacch:brett and B) underpitch the brett some to bring out some more funk.”

I don’t have any personal experience with WLP670 but I have brewed twice with Wyeast 3789. My understanding is that the two yeast strains in 3789 is the Orval brewer’s yeast strain (e.g., WLP510) and Brett B. In both instances I made a yeast starter since my beers had an OG > 1.060. Both of those batches came out very, very funky. I was attempting to make a beer similar to Orval but instead I got beers that tasted like West Coast Rayon Vert.

So, based upon these two data points with the 3789 blend maybe making a starter with WLP670 would result in increasing the amount of funk?

Hopefully at some point @OldSock will chime into this thread.

Cheers!

 

Did you make a starter of your WLP670?

Cheers!

 

One thing to keep in mind is strains of Brett as well. Not all Brett strains produce the funk. I have a 3724 fermented Saison that I bottled with WLP644 Brett Trois that is way overcarbed, and super fruity, but no funk at all, even 15 months later. I have another Saison (recipe and review) that I bottled with Orval dregs that had a fair amount of funk after 7 months, even more now (just shy of 3 years) that has great carbonation for a Saison, but doesn't turn half the bottle to foam like the Trois (same FG on each beer @ bottling). If the 670 has a low phenol producing Sacc strain and a fruity Brett like Trois, then you aren't really going to get funk. If the 670 is low phenol, even adding Brett strains that have a more pronounced barnyard funk (Orval) won't give lots of funk to the beer. Ardennes threw a lot of clove in my buddy's Belgian IPA, I mean a lot, and after 6 weeks with WY Brett L it had a really nice funk level showing and the clove was near untraceable.

 

@JackHorzempa and @JebediahScooter , no starter on that one per oldsock's recommendation in a buried thread here. One vial pitched. The beer has zero brett influence at this point and drinks like a BSGA. The banana was gone after conditioning for 6 months. As for using HF dregs, I've had homebrewed saisons with Seans dregs and they were fantastic.
@jbakajust1 , my trois experience, although limited, seems to be the opposite of yours. My bottles were very fruity and juicy initially, however they are dried out and funky only 2 months later. Brett is, indeed, unpredictable even when using the same strain.

 

Well, based upon the @SFACRKnight input of "no starter" and my experience that making a starter with 3789 I would suggest to @JebediahScooter that it would be worthwhile to consider making a starter with WLP670.

I mean:

• You have the one data point that a no starter for WLP670 resulted in a clean beer
• My two data points of a starter with 3789 yielded funk

I suppose there is no guarantee that a WLP670 starter will result in funk but not making a stater appears to result in clean beer.

Cheers!

 

@JackHorzempa I will see your two data points of 3789 starter beer was funky and raise you a 3789 starter fermented Tripel that had no Belgian esters (mild fruits), no funk, and a lot of Almonds. Fermented at 72*F.

 

Whoa! Don't you have to be "it" to tag someone?

 

“…a 3789 starter fermented Tripel that had no Belgian esters (mild fruits), no funk, and a lot of Almonds.”

Well, that is perplexing to me.

Cheers!

 

Sometimes the shotgun approach is the best option?

Good luck with your beer!

Cheers!

 

I highly recommend stepped up Orval dregs. My wife is a horse person and the dregs produce a horsey-leather aroma that smells remarkably like the tack room at her barn. They will ferment reliably as cool as 55F too.

Arthur dregs will give a lot of sourness; you'll almost think there's lacto in there (good, IMO). Grassroots Arctic Saison dregs provide all the HF goodness plus some extra funk from Anchorage. I love this and you might too.