Saison yeasts and dryhopping

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by SFACRKnight, May 3, 2020.

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  1. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I enjoy bone dry saisons with dryhopping. The thing is I haven't done one since learning I am allergic to brett. I am wanting to brew one using with a touch of lacto twang and a saison yeast that pitches some fruity esters to compliment the hops I want to use. Anyone have a strain they prefer? I was looking at imperial french saison for something new but am looking at any saison yeast without brett. Sacc trois is out as it throws the same compounds as brett which give me an allergic fit.
     
  2. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Savant (1,208) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I’d pitch lacto for 16-24 hours then pitch a saison yeast. French saison yeast is 3711 which isn’t my favorite strain but I also don’t get any twang out of it.
     
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    For fruity esters, the Dupont strain(s) (like Wyeast 3724) is the way to go. I've never used it after Lactobacillus, so I can't guarantee that it will perform at low pH, but OTOH I don't know of any sacch strains that won't.
     
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  4. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    I just put a keg on tap that used Omega Yeast OYL42 which is very fruity and very slightly tart. I think it's supposed to be the same as Wyeast 3726. Interesting on its own but I think could work well with some lacto.
     
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  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If you have used Wyeast 3724 before, how does the OYL42 (Blaugies?) compare.
     
  6. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    I have not used 3724 in the past so can't make a comparison there. This is my first use of the Blaugies strain and am enjoying it, I get a lot of fruitiness, especially in the nose, but would compare it more to juicy fruit gum than any actual fruit. My saison is fairly simple and low gravity and this yeast makes an incredibly drinkable beer.

    The beer is still very young so I expect a bit more maturation to take place and while it's enjoyable so far, I feel it is missing something. I am also looking to create my holy grail of saisons so I am being very nit picky.
     
  7. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've never gotten fruity esters from that strain. It's all bubble gum hot dog water if that makes sense. The last time I used that strain I started with wyeast and blended it with a batch of saison that I brewed off HF dregs and the wyeast forbidden fruit strain that got super sour. It was then aged on suvingnon blanc oak spirals and finally dry hopped with Nelson hoos. The brett really made it happen for me as far as fruit, but I cant swing that any more. So I am hoping for a clean strain That produces some fruitiness. Just looking around all the strains appear to be the same.
     
  8. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    What are the compounds that Brett creates that you’re allergic to? I’ve never heard of that.

    Check out Saison yeast options from The Yeast Bay. They have some unique strains that might not be available elsewhere. I believe Drew Beecham did some Saison strain comparison. Might be worth looking into.

    You could also try a non diastaticus Belgian strain you like and just add some enzymes to dry it out.

    Or mix a small portion of Belle Saison in with a fruity strain you like. You’ll get the bone dry attenuation of French Saison with very little of its flavor profile.
     
  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I have tasted "hot dog" in beers made with european/mexican coriander. It might be a phenol. Can't say I've had that with 3724, which for me is quite fruity and low-ish (for a saison strain) in phenols,
     
  10. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Apparently brett throws a lot of histamine type compounds that can cause allergic reactions. @OldSock mentioned it in his book and also brought it up in an 9ld post here when I first ran into this issue.
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Well, if you replaced the word "fruitiness" with "citrusy" what you described there would be the Wyeast French Saison strain (3711) for me. And for my palate Lallemand Belle Saison yeast seems very close to 3711.

    A number of years ago I brewed a Hoppy Saison using the Belle Saison strain and I was happy with the resulting beer:

    "I brewed a Hoppy Saison using Danstar Belle Saison Yeast and a total of 2 ounces of Amarillo for late hopping (flavor, end of boil & dry hopping). I used Warrior for bittering. I am happy with how this beer turned out but I was somewhat surprised that this beer required considerable bottle aging for the beer to really come together. My OG was 1.059 and FG was 1.001 (I used no sugar)."

    I suspect the above batch was modestly hopped vs. what you are intending to do here.

    Cheers!
     
  12. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I was planning on one oz flameout and 2 for dryhopping. I may play with citra, Nelson, and some other fruity hops. There is an English hop known for throwing berry iirc that sounds promising as well. I was reading my reviews of HF juicy and wondering if can recreate some of that magic without the brett.
     
  13. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yeast bay saison2 looks promising. Gotta find some reviews now.
     
  14. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Also check out the Simonaitis Lithuanian strain from The Yeast Bay. It produces this really interesting spicy/orange character that’s kind of hard to describe. Not really Saison like. Not really like anything else actually. You can ferment it pretty darn warm which if you want to coferment with lacto could get you acidity pretty quickly.

    I haven’t had much luck getting really high attenuation with it but if you use some enzymes or maybe mix in a little Belle Saison you might be able to dry it out more.
     
    #14 wasatchback, May 3, 2020
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
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  15. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I like the pear esters and cinnamon-like phenols from BE-134. I want to do something with that and El Dorado at some point this summer.
     
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  16. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I like Imperial's Rustic a lot more than I like the so-called French saison yeasts I have tried (which do not include Imperial's). My saisons have generally sought yeast derived flavors. I find Rustic leans a little towards bubble gum, but not obnoxiously so. The French saison strains just don't bring the esters for me. However, that may make them better for dry hopping. I never tried to dry hop a saison.
     
  17. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,418) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    It's generally not Brett that is blamed for the "biogenic amines" I mentioned in ASB, rather it's the enteric bacteria at work early in spontaneous fermentation. Lowering the pH slightly in the kettle is supposed to alleviate the issue.
     
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  18. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Funny you mention that, I have never had issues with kettle sours. I still steer clear of brett and pedio though. Which stinks, but it's not worth the issues.
     
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  19. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Pundit (795) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

    Recently brewed a saison with Belle (fermented at 66-76F free-rise) and dry-hopped with Hallertau Blanc & Huell Melon. Came out fruity as heck and very dry. Highly recommended and very easy.
     
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  20. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Pundit (795) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

    That said, the Blaugies strain is my overall favorite.
     
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