Salute to Saisons (2024)

Fixed Gear Foeder Oak Aged #06 Peach Saison
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/54434/707989/

From the oak aged series. Poured a 500ml bottle into a tulip. A one finger fine bubbly white head on a hazy apricot. The head diminishes to a layer. good head retention. Some lace rings.

Fruit in the nose. Slight funk.

Fruit dominated the taste up front. A mildly funky fruit finish.

Medium body and carbonation.

An interesting Saison. Fairly mild but well balanced.

look: 3.75 | smell: 3.75 | taste: 3.75 | feel: 3.75 | overall: 3.75

 

One of my favorite beers and the only packaging option that makes it so.

 

When I first tasted sofie she was funky and sweaty. I remember the lemon and funk so well. Is it funky still? I wish there were any in this style here in ithaca.

 

YES! And sadly not only to be found in cans lately.

 

Cherry infused farmhouse ale - delicate funk with pure varietal character - full review here (4.27/5) and in NBW #215. Cheers!

 

"I am a fan of Goose Island Sofie which is a bottle conditioned Saison. Goose Island does not provide details but there is no doubt in my mind that Brett is part of this beer flavor profile with at least 6 months of bottle aging needed to perceive the funk. Does Goose Island add the Brett during the bottling process? They do not say but it would not surprise me that this is the case."

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Brettanomyces

Cheers!

 

There’s a good chance I’m misunderstanding you (did you mean to put the “not” in there?), but if you are adding “not that there’s anything wrong with that” to it only being available in cans lately, I’d argue that “there is something wrong with that.” There’s a decent chance that the canned beer doesn’t undergo secondary fermentation, and to me the taste differences seem to support that.

 

Well, first off, "not" is a ghost from my original thought to actually type, "not that there's anything wrong with that."

More importantly, THIS BEER (Saison DuPont) is only a shadow of itself when packaged in a can.

My intention with the Seinfeld reference is that I have no problem with cans in general, however; in this particular case the can is inappropriate.

Thanks for calling attention to this, it gave me an opportunity to correct the typo and to clarify the intended comment. AND Yes, I know I can...

Seinfeld - Stuff your sorries in a sack! (youtube.com)

 

And unfortunately, I'd say something similar about the 11.2oz bottles compared to the 750s.

 

Interesting. I’ve had both bottle packages, and will have to try this comparison. The cans are dramatically obvious.

 

To me, it seems like the 11.2oz bottles in the US are very prone to diacetyl. I could be wrong of course, but it’s unfortunate how often I can ID the beer based on it. I actually prefer the cans to the small bottles. At this point (if what I’m experiencing is real) I’m thinking that it could be a product of secondary fermentation differences. Dupont lays the 750s down for secondary to improve their character but let’s the small bottles stand. Perhaps the 750s have improved diacetyl cleanup as a result. It’s worth mentioning that I suspected this process difference based on just drinking the beer before actually knowing that there was a process difference (so this isn’t a case if it being all in my head). Now I know that the brewer prefers the 750s due to the secondary fermentation differences - but states that the 750s are simply more complex. None of this is meant to vilify diacetyl (I don’t want to perpetuate that typical attitude), but I just don’t like Saison Dupont with high levels of what I perceive to be diacetyl.

 

If ever I find both bottled versions, these comments will be considered, and my notes will be posted here. Now to keep keen eyes when hunting.

 

What specifically does the beer taste like to you? Are you perceiving a flavor of butter (e.g., movie theater buttered popcorn)?

Cheers!

 

I'd describe it as a Pilsner Urquell flavor.
I kid.
As usual, take anything that I say with some skepticism. I've never heard anybody have the same reaction to Dupont as me. BTW - I see this is a brewery topic rather than a beer one. I have the same experiences with Moinette. In the past, I was theorizing that it could be related to conditioning differences in the two container sizes, and when I wondered (in a post) if the 11.2oz bottles were layed down, you provided a Doug Piper video that informed me that they weren't. Thanks for that.

 

Well, now you have.

I have in the past experienced 'issues' with Saison Dupont in the smaller bottles. At the time I ascribed them as likely an problem with mishandling (e.g., high heat exposure). Those 'bad' bottles did not taste like diacetyl (i.e., butter) but some other unwanted off-flavor which I would describe as being toasted marshmallows. My working theory (and I want to emphasize the word "theory") is that these bottles got exposed to high temperatures during storage (or transport) and this caused the yeast in the bottles to suffer from yeast autolysis. Flavors often written for yeast autolysis are "meaty" or "rubbery" or "soy sauce" or...Do any of these descriptors 'ring a bell' for you?

In the past there was a thread on the topic of bottle conditioned beers and yeast autolysis:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...beers-run-the-risk-of-yeast-autolysis.669788/

Cheers!

 

Interesting.
I have never identified autolysis in beer I've consumed and wouldn't know specifically if I had a beer that suffered considerably from it. One would think that old Belgian beers can particularly suffer from it but I don't know. Sometimes I've wondered about it with bottle conditioned barley wines. Would mishandling contribute to autolysis rather than simply age? Diacetyl levels can also be influenced by mishandling as far as I know. I do not think that what I am personally experiencing is a product of mishandling though. It seems too linked to packaging format.

 

From a quick web search (with emphasis in bold by me):

“Autolysis can be triggered by various factors, including aging, but is exacerbated by poor yeast and beer handling practices. Examples include high temperatures, abrupt temperature changes during pitching or chilling, and osmotic shock from pitching yeast into high-gravity worts.”

My understanding of causes of diacetyl:

"Why is there diacetyl in the beer?

Bacterial contamination

Diacetyl can be produced by lactic acid producing bacteria, Pediococcus and Lactobacillus. But if the beer is suffering from a bacterial contamination it is likely there is more off about the beer than just a buttery flavor.

There is a straightforward solution to this potential issue: practice proper sanitation in the brewing of the beer.

For the case of serving beer via draft (bars, homebrewers that keg) the cause of perceptible diacetyl in beer can be caused by dirty lines (bacterial contamination in the beer lines).

On the off chance that the amount of contamination is low and there is still live yeast present in the beer there is a chance that the yeast can ‘clean up’ the diacetyl over time but it is best just to practice proper sanitation in brewing; this will nip the problem in the bud.

Yeast pathway to produce diacetyl

Diacetyl is produced during the primary fermentation of beer by the brewers yeast. During fermentation the yeast will produce amino acids, proteins and a number of other compounds. One of the amino acids produced by the yeast is valine via an intermediate compound, acetolactate. Not all of the acetolactate will be processed into valine and this excess acetolactate will exit the yeast cell. This acetolactate outside the yeast cell will be chemically converted to diacetyl in the beer. This chemical process is an oxidative reaction and higher fermentation temperatures will encourage this reaction. Beyond the aspect of fermentation temperature there are other factors which increase the production of diacetyl in the beer:

• Poor wort nutrition (i.e., lack of valine) will encourage the yeast cell to increase valine production
• Low levels of oxygen in the wort
• Yeast strain

To further expound on the last factor listed above, yeast strain selection can have a notable impact here. For example the Ringwood yeast strain (e.g., Wyeast 1187) is renowned for producing a lot of diacetyl during primary fermentation.

The pathway towards diacetyl production is depicted in the figure below:


https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Diacetyl_Rest

As an end consumer there really is now way to know for certain when it comes to imported beer. Multiple warehouses are involved on both sides of the Atlantic. Did the brewery insist upon environmentally controlled containers during transport on the cargo ship? Did the retailer let the beer 'sit in the back' where it could have been exposed to higher than desired temperature? Etc.

Cheers!

 

Chris, I have to read from you how you would describe the off-flavor(s) in your small(er) bottles of Saison Dupont.

Is it safe to say it does not smell/taste like butter?

Are willing to share a descriptor (e.g., toasted marshmallow)?

Cheers!

 

Butter flavor and slick feel. I didn't think it was necessary to state this.

My comment about diacetyl and mishandling was only about what you are stating with regard to autolysis. Diacetyl levels can increase in packaged product over time if the precursor is there and the conditions are there. Heat can accelerate this.

I don't use definitive statements in these conversations and you can apply your above comment to most process and commercial things people talk about here. I am just adding personal experiences.

An end consumer isn't typically going to know the age of a hop used in a beer, when it was harvested, how it was stored, who it came from, where it was grown, what the environmental conditions were... they'll only know the varietal and potentially how it was processed. That lack of info doesn't stop people from talking about hop flavors and wanting to know what varietal was used. It doesn't make people throw out any conversation about hop flavor (although to be honest, I wish it would be acknowledged more). You can essentially apply that logic to most things in a beer's life from ingredient sourcing through product handling.

I won't tell someone what they should think of a beer, but I can say what I think of one. I'm a ding-a-ling, so people can use that info as they see fit, but hopefully they won't use it to change how they feel about a beer in place of using their own sensory perception.

In this case, when comparing Dupont beers from the same production year, I have never experienced this diacetyl-like component in 75cl bottles of the beer... nor in canned versions of the beer. I don't get his impression with EVERY 33cl bottle, but I get it often in those bottles. These reactions are consistent between Moinette and Saison Dupont. I am the last person to tell you that I "know for certain" what is going on, but there is enough of a pattern and I have enough personal experiences to cause me to not want to spend my money on 33cl bottles in my area.

The last time I had Saison Dupont in a 33cl bottle it was incredibly good... but I was in England. That beer made me have the opinion that the handling issues related to the beer coming across the ocean might be impacting what I am perceiving. I am also of the opinion that unless the 75cl and 33cl bottles are handled differently by the importer, then it would be a crazy coincidence if the packaging/beer differences weren't at play as well. It could be a perfect storm situation.

 

BTW @JackHorzempa - I am not saying that what I am experiencing is certainly a case of diacetyl and not yeast autolysis. I am far too self-doubting and a believer in the flexibility of our senses to state things like that.