Some beers take time

Actually a lot of people say this. Sure, but do their efforts work out? I think that is highly debatable. You can't blame everything on palate shift or what foods you ate that day or...

 

Okie dokie.

 

The question you raised is on an entirely different level of discussion than the things going on in this thread, which are within batch or within one year's crop scope. It is basically a whole additional layer of complexity in the sense that some of the variables in this thread may or may not come into play from year to year just as agricultural variation may. So basically it's an order of magnitude more difficult to sort out in a meaningful discussion, especially when that discussion would be outside the scope of this thread.

 

I disagree and when you want to be an expert on other people's palates I think it does come into play. My stance is you can't blame everything on what you ate that day or...and other factors may be at play that have nothing to do with the drinker at all.

 

But you see nobody was blaming everything on what was eaten that day. If you go back up thread my point was that two bottles from the same sixpack can have different levels of enjoyment, apparently related to such things as what was eaten that day. That's totally outside the scope of year to year variability in agricultural ingredients and looks at variability within bottles filled basically at the same time.

Also, in that post I was saying that it has happend to me so I was speaking primarily about my own experiences with my own sensory system.

 

Yes I was clear on that, however I added my thoughts to the discussion.

Your own? I must have missed that in a post like this:

 

That is the second post I meant my comment to be focused on the first. Apologies for confusion.

My comments there are based in part on direct experience (the example I provided) and upon the emprical research by sensory scientists.

Here are some non-technical discussions of some similar things.

https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/bias/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/02/accounting-for-taste
http://www.nstu.net/malika-auvray/files/malika-auvray-auvray_spence_2008_cc.pdf

You can feel free to raise your concerns with the pros.

Also while none of the cited sources deal extensively with palate fatigue, my guess is you personally have experienced that for yourself.

 

No worries. I totally get it and have researched this myself and there is a lot of merit in what you/the pros say and yes I too have experienced this. But the "it's all in your head" or "your palate has shifted [for whatever reason]" I just don't think with certain beers is always the explanation.

 

Fine! But remember nobody said it was always the explanation, just that it happens.

Also your concerns about year to year variation are complely valid, but it is also the case that for many they are not compairing beers from two different years. They are comparing this year's reality with their memory of last year's reality. Memory has it's own set of weaknesses which should not be totally ignored or discarded when considering possiblities.

 

Agree 100% that food can ruin your Beer flavors in a bad way. This past Monday night, my wife and I were having some homemade buffalo wings and boiled shrimp.

Although I cleaned the shrimp in cold water for about 4 minutes, I still got a hold of one with a horrible iodine taste that lasted about 3 hours. Ruined 3 really desirable beers that night.

 

That's a good sweet spot, I think. If I'm going to drink anything that really needs to be COLD...I have a cooler and lots of ice for it!

 

That's true but there is also a pretty strong power with memory and smells and tastes and I'll counter again by saying if you really loved a food or drink you're more likely to remember very specific details about it and even if you don't get to have it again for a year your taste memory will be more accurate than when you have something again you were just meh about.

I also think with serious craft beer drinkers they have to be viewed in a different light and be given some credit because they are purposely dissecting a beer with each sip (and smell) so it's not a stretch for me to think that they'll be able to pick up on differences even if they haven't had the beer for a while.

An interesting topic for sure and part of the fun of it is that a lot of it can be subjective.

 

We're pretty much in agreement about most all of that, but notice that we're also now moving into a broadening of the topic that both of the early two posts I made were mostly focusing on. (What you're really interested in tackling here actually seems more in the way of a carry over from the type of thing being "argued/debated" in parts of the current Nugget Nectar thread about batch variation etc., so perhaps we might want to develop this more over there?)

You are absolutely correct, there is no question that novices and experts (self trained or otherwise) will have different memory patterns shaped by their level of experience, etc. IIRC what you describe about strength of memory for tastes and smell can sometimes, but not always, be true but it is pretty much as likely, if not more so, to also happen that unpleasant memories carry more detail forward than do many pleasant ones. But there is also a possibility for us to remember things that never happened at all (lots of data to demonstrate this phenomenon).

So yes folks with a lot of experince "back then" can indeed potentially pick up differences from that older flavor profile since their memory will be more complex. But that doesn't totally exempt them from the effects of the day to day vagaries of more immediate effects on sensory experiences. Nor does it exempt them from the possibilities of long term physiological change. E.g., some of our taste buds die off every year at such a rate that you and I have both totally replaced by now those that were in our mouth about 7 years ago. The problem is there's no guarantee, especially as one grows older, that those replacements, and the patterns they create, will be identical to what died off.

This is all a part of the background as to why some of the sensory science types will sometimes insist on doing such things as blind taste testing of current product compared with "preserved" samples of previous product. (E.G, with beer one can freeze the liquid in such a way that no chemical changes take place and the beer can be reasonably used in comparisons with current product.)

(And we've now moved this thread even further off topic since it began with the effects of temperature of flavors. )

 

Sounds like is just as hard to brew a "flawed" beer correctly as it is to brew a good beer correctly!

 

Indeed that seems to be the case--i.e., that dialing things in can be difficult. Also, based on the style descriptions on this site, sometimes a low level of DMS is considered to be acceptable or expected and so I don't see that could really be a flaw at all, in the context of that style.

 

I don't know if trust is the right word here. But I don't often trust myself, or my first impressions. It's why I don't review beers (im more of a check in type of person, so I can catalog scores of beer for that particular day/instance).

There have been so many beers that open up about halfway through a pint. I know almost every IPA I have on first sip/first beer of the day feels incredibly harsh. But then I feel my senses are maybe coated with IBUs and flavor, that everything else is incredibly subdued. Subdued to the point my senses arent working into overdrive anymore and so much mellows out (for the better).

Someone mentioned liking sours before IPAs. I dont necessarily have beers I like before others.

Warming up may be a big factor too. I like stouts nearly room temp ALL of the time.

I had a hopslam the other day and the first half of the can was a bit malty and average to my liking. Something happened about halfway through though. Maybe the hops finally coated the right part of my mouth and my nose opened up. The last few sips, I had an amazing amount of hop aroma and flavor. It made me want to revisit that beer. It instantly went from a 3.75 to 4 beer into a 4.25-4.5.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I had just sampled it quickly, It may have been in the 3.75 range. But I went for the full pour and it opened up. That's not to say that this experience would happen with every can.

Then theres my favorite core IPA (elevated ipa). I swear there is batch to batch variation. Some days its incredibly dry and juicy and malts take a backseat. Other times, its too malty and IBU abrasive. This is basically 6 years of drinking their canned offering weekly. I have found nothing scientific to prove that its batch to batch variation, or hop variation. So more than likely, my palate and mood has a real strong range. Other people may be different.

I also know that I have what I call a 'butter zone'. Having three of the same IPAs, I have found that first one to be somewhat harsh, but then those second and third pours may be the best beer I have ever had. The hop balance in my mouth and around my senses is in that smooth state of mind. But by that four beer, the hops can sometimes take on a mind of their own. This is especially true with NEIPAs. It could be a sweetness factor at play here too. ie my body getting drunk and going into coma mode lol.

I love six packs because each experience can be quite different. I also won't turn away perceived 'bad' beers or ones that I had in the past and hated. It may have changed. It usually takes me 4-5 tries where the beer was bad each time, to never want that one again.

Not sure what I'm totally trying to say here. We all know what works best for each of us. I personally hate the people who proclaim a small sample as the best beer they have ever had. These beerfest tickers are really skewing the ratings system. I feel I need atleast one pint (even better if its had over an hours time to let the flavors change), or even a full four or six pack before I really say something dramatic about it. I guess I'm an all around larger sample size type of person.

It is tough with some rare beers. You may only ever get one small sample of it for our lifetime. I guess I would like people to start saying "today, or on this day, this is the best beer I have had". Reviews seem so concrete, yet my palate is always revolving/changing. It feels like we love the rankings and lists and proclaiming stuff as the best ever more than ever before. That's not to say I don't have an opinion. Some beers I just do not like. But I feel Im more open to an evolving benefit of doubt. I'm seeing so many people online just totally hate a beer upon first sip and never give it another shot.

TL;DR With palate fatique and sensory changes so real to me, I often find it hard to give concrete opinions on beers. One day, it may be great. The next, not so great. Or even the same beer over an hours time frame. I think more than ever before, new beer fans lack the patience to see how products evolve or look in the mirror and figure its them thats the problem..

 

I agree with most of your post, however there are times when 1 beer is more than enough to know there's no redeeming qualities in that can or bottle. When that happens, I typically won't post a review, unless I give some of it to my wife to get her thoughts. I don't tell her what I'm thinking, and wait for her input. I trust my instincts, however I'm still learning new things each week/month.

In the last 6 months, I've had 4 or 5 beers that were low, to way below subpar. One of them was a flat tasting IPA (but not flat). Fortunately, I had 6 of them to try, so I knew a 2nd beer would validate my initial thoughts. I waited a few days for that 2nd beer, and found my taste buds were no different. There was no NO or BB on the can, so I had no clue how old the beer was.

I had a beer last night that was highly recommended by the gentleman working the floor at the store. I did not get anything out of it, however.. I passed it to my wife who loved it and finished it. Good thing I bought a 4 pack, because maybe the previous beer horked up my senses? Most beers I won't post a review until I've tried them a couple of times, but some are SO good, that a 2nd or 3rd attempt won't change my initial thoughts.

As for the "butter zone", I get that sometimes too.. I never knew what to call it until now! There are some IPA's that go opposite of that, if I've had 3 or 4 of them, the flavors continue to come to the front (Vault 5C's was like that for me).

 

Indeed.

More data points are never a bad thing.

 

I was kind of afraid of how you guys were going to describe this, as I don't want any butter in my beer, but I understand what you are saying.