Sour mashing

I didn't mention it but I do a 15 min boil when it is sour enough. The reason is twofold: first, it locks the sourness in at the level that I want by killing all the bugs, and secondly it means I can put the beer into any fermenter and not worry about future infections.

 

pretty much, Ive done sour mashes and sour worting a couple times, i prefer sour worting as it keeps your mashtun a lot cleaner

On a recent attemp (K Common) I did a no boil but added my wild culture starter to the wort, didnt boil and it turned out nice and sour (kept at ~70-75F), added a packet of notty after 3days (coulda done 2 and been Ok)

The previous K Common that I sour worted and just tossed in grain turned out nasty, due to all the butyric/enteric bacteria that took hold very very early on and made hot garbage/vomit smells and tastes that lasted through a boil, had to toss it

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but you dont want that flavor in your beer, do a stepped up wild starter or drop the pH of your wort before you add the grain. Its cheap insurance to protect your beer.

1030 is a good place to start for the starter, I usually let it go ~1-2wks (adding chalk along the way) step up after the first bit of wort has been fermented out (leaver grain behind if possible) 2x steps ups are usually sufficient, but taste and smell the last one (use dif flasks if you have capability, those smells can stick to glass and skew things)

 

Berliner.

 

There is more than one way to pasturize wort. I don't have a pH meter, so rely on temperature and creating an anaerobic environment. Please don't come at me with things your mama told you, I need references about your super bacteria that grow ideally at temps WAY above human body temps.

http://www.hindawi.com/isrn/microbiology/2013/731430/
http://food.unl.edu/web/safety/botulinum
http://byo.com/stories/item/889-how-to-make-a-sour-mash-techniques

 

um my mama didnt tell me this I know it for a fact

your own link (food.unl.edu) shows the following temp range
Growth conditions:

• Temperature range: 3-48°C (38-118°F)
  • Type A and B: 10-50ºC (50-122ºF)
  • Type E: 3-45ºC (38-113ºF)

And not to be an ass cuz anybody can say anything on the internet but I kinda know bacteria, seeing i have quite a few advanced degrees in that area

links to another ref
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=5B342A87381E44CE7517D4C4EA67928D.f04t03

things like butyric bacteria dont care if your wort is "anaerobic" because there is no way you actually did that outside a anaerobic chamber in lab, to top it off+ butyric bacteria are often anaerobic!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid

Also in the real world you'll never kill off all the bacteria, since realistically there is no way you'll maintain the temps exacly high enough and long enough to kill every last single one, especially when dealing with spore formers. Then when the temp drops a bit suddenly those bacteria rapdily take off and ruin a beer that is sour mashed/worted. All it takes is the smallest amount of butyric acid/ isobutanil/etc and other nasty compounds to form to ruin a beer since the threshold for taste/aroma is very very small

Please stop spouting off, I read another thread where you wanted to be the biggest internet genious as well, and take your own advice

Get educated

 

Thanks for this info. I started a 1000ml starter with a handful of 2-row thrown in last night. Sitting at around 118 degrees. I want to step it up a few times to get a gallon of sour wort. How long do you wait before stepping up each time?

 

testing with a hydrometer is always the best but not always practical with small volumes, so I suggest waiting till you see the activity drop to next to nothing, decant the top liquid, add some chalk or baking soda and more wort, generally this takes a few days to a week when first starting with grains, the second and third step are usually a couple days at the most

 

Geez. Every numbnut with a Bachelors and the pubmed website on their bookmarks is getting wild tonight. "Genious"

 

I plan to play around with a wort souring approach, along the lines of the methods outlined in a Zymurgy article a few years ago. Basically, it involves developing souring cultures under controlled conditions in a small amount of starter wort with a bit of grain and then introducing them to the main wort when the souring is done. The main idea from the article that fascinates me is controlling conditions in the starter that minimize the presence of bugs that are going to give your wort off-flavors. Maybe this is a 2014 project for me.

 

not a subscriber to zymurgy but that method is my go to method for ensuring you dont get bad bacteria/yeast in your beer

and just an FYI but besides a bachelors in biochemical engineering, I have a MS in Environmental engineering and a PHD in chemical engineering.......genius? maybe

 

I know you briefly explained your process above, but can you explain it in more detail.

 

After a few days sitting at 120 degrees (1000ml starter with 1c pilsen dme and 4oz of 2-row), I have this beauty:

 

s

1. Start with a low gravity wort 1030 or less (1020 even is a good place to start) ~100-300mL
   • Not a bad idea to add a tiny tiny bit of chalk here, but not necessary
   • I like to hop it to 20ish IBU's (helps keep bad bacteria down a bit, not much but some)
   • I also like to add a tiny bit of nutrient here as well
2. Add some grain to this wort
   • Doesnt have to be kept warm, in fact I really recommend normal ferm temps (~65Fish)
   • May take up to 1wk to see anything
   • When its fermented you'll see a layer on the bottom of the flask and the liquid will be fairly clear
3. Decant the liquid (First one often smells bad)
   
4. Add more wort, ~200-500mL depending on layer and fermentation activity
   • Can be a bit higher OG 1030-40
   • Add nutrients again, and for mine its often hopped (left over beer wort that I autoclave for starters)
   • I add a bit of chalk/baking soda, with chalk being preferred
5. Let ferment again for a few days
   • doesnt hurt to try adding chalk again, if acidity is present youll see off gassing, though with CO2 in solution this will happen to some extent no matter what
6. When things have settled down, repeat steps 3-5

I dont typically go a full five gal this way, usually I'll do 2-3 step ups to ~1L on the final go around, and pitch that to ~2gal batch, the 2gal batch can go into a 5gal batch. I believe you could easily go straight to a 5gal batch this way but you might add some yeast a day or so in to ensure good attenuation.

With my normal 2gal to 5 gal approach, typically the 5gal batch is sour but not quite as much as the 2gal version. This is because the bacteria will actually inhibit themselves with the acid they produce, potentially killing some strains off and reducing their numbers (this is why the chalk is added to the starters)

Going this route Ive had nothing but good luck

The beers typically start out very very fruity and tart (peach is what I usually get - your mileage may vary), and become increasingly bretty and funky with time

Hopefully that was more thorough, if you have more ?'s feel free to PM me. Most of all though dont worry too much, things usually work themselves out

 

Thanks for the great writeup! Are you cold-crashing the wort before decanting that first starter?

 

no just give it time, patience is a virtue with this approach

I will add though that the longer the wait the more often you might try adding some chalk to buffer the acidity, you dont want to kill off all the bacteria!

 

Great, thanks! I think I will start another starter using your method and see how it compares with the version I already have going now (main difference being that I'm heating the starter I have going now). Aiming for a gallon or so to blend in with a berliner or sour blonde...

 

Looks a lot like the Flanders red I refilled my barrel with. I filled the barrel tuesday night and peaked in last night to craziness like that coming up the bung hole...