Sour Prices

Marble in ABQ had a really nice apricot sour on tap when I was there a few weeks ago. Get some if they still have it. It was awesome.

 

Petrus! Aged pale, oud bruin, and aged red are all $10 or less for 750s and do a good job.

 

I look at drinking sours as akin to those who enjoy wine. I am not here to guzzle but to sip and enjoy. In the long run it pretty much equals out in the cost as I do not drink more than one in a sitting. Mostly I enjoy IPA's and other less expensive beers but like to drink sours as a way to mix it up. Some of my buddies and I will do tastings where we bring sours and IPA's and mix it up: first a sour then a bitter. Sometimes these end up being pretty amazing experiences to the old taste buds.

 

Too true. and three fantastic beers right there. I might add one: Mariage Parfait
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/47/5357

 

So what that is a Belgian sour is not pasteurized? Pasteurization is horrible!

 

Fairly certain that the Vintage is not sweetened – the traditional idea behind an Oud Bruin is that it should be sweet & sour. Like a geuze it should be about balance and not sourness. I don’t think that Rodenbach sweetens much if at all, they just use more young non-sour beer for the regular one. The actual Rodenbach foederbier is quite heavily sour.

Caractère Rouge basically tastes like Vintage with fruits, most like it even more than Vintage. Pretty good, they just released a 3rd batch & they made a reasonably big amount – 30.000 bottle I believe. I think some USA distribution has already happened or should happen. Maybe you can trade with someone from the tastes for it.

 

I don’t want to drink sours like wine – lambic used to be drunk by the poorer workers in Belgium. It was like poor man’s drink & was sold in 1 litre pitchers. I want to go back to that. Pure lambic is still afoordable – Cantillon is 2.8 euro if I am not mistaken per litre.

 

Sour beers are expensive for the same reason well aged wine or liquor commands a higher price than the stuff with minimal aging: it costs money to sit on product that you can't sell. When you fill fermentors with beer and let it sit for a year or more you have to pay up front for the fermentors, the beer ingredients and the physical space to store the souring beer and hope it comes out ok and that you can unload it to the market. You can only make and sell what you have space to age.

If you look at the sour brewers who produce large volumes (e.g. Rodenbach, Liefman, Lindemans) their beers run around $10-15/750ml because they have the capacity to sell on volume. Brewers running smaller operations usually have to charge more because they sell fewer bottles but still need to pay for all that beer sitting in barrels. Also, if the beer is being imported from Belgium there's extra shipping charges getting added into the price.

I think a lot of American sours are overpriced for their value. They may be decent beers but not worth $20-25 per bottle. A lot of the American sours are made by buying a few empty barrels and pitching the same sour mixes homebrewers use. They make good beers but I have a hard time paying $25 per bottle for something that tastes virtually identical to most homebrew sours. However, there are many great domestic sour beers out there worth the price they command.

 

That would be nice but here in the States imports from Belgium are quite expensive and the ones made here follow close behind. I wish it were that affordable as I would definitely drink them much more often!

 

I think it boils down to all the really good ones require barrel aging.

 

Indeed, people justify the high prices of some beers by comparing them to wine but that makes no sense especially considering that there are tongs of wines out there with reasonable prices.

Things are getting a bit skewed, Belgian lambic makers do their best to keep prices as low as possible. 75 cl. bottle of Cantillon geuze costs 5 euro at the brewery and that is the price that they are sold to all distributors. 375 ml. Geuze Black label is below 1.4 euro, 75 cl. Hanssens geuze is like 6 euro,etc. These are tiny breweries, miniature compared to most American craft breweries – there are plenty of USA breweries who have barrel aging programs many times bigger than the size of any of these breweries. Transportation costs, demand, limited distribution, profiteering etc. drive the prices of these bottles way up before most Americans can get hold of them. Seeing those prices, some American brewers have decided to ask for very high prices. Which is justified by the time, effort etc. to make them. Do they really have cost more than double tan De Cam for instance, cantillon or Oud Beersel?

Say that you do not agree with me on sours and that I am wrong. Take a look at Germany. Pils and similar beers are seen as food products, they are sold very cheaply, sometimes with a disregard for quality because no one is going to pay 15 euro for bread because it is “craft” sort of to speak. These logic includes only traditional German beers & not foreign ones and styles. Some German beer drinkers and breweries have become interested in American styles. Quite a few German breweries have released IPA’s for about 15 to 30 euro per bottle. The logic being that these are high end products, not necessities like regular beer, they cost a lot of time and effort to make, ingredients are expensive, if wine can why not beer etc. Same logic as people use for sours and BA beers. Most of these beers are merely good at best as far as I can tell. One of the very worst beers I have ever had was Schäffler Bräu Franz Anton Schäffler Triple, quite expensive, luxury bottle with a text about Belgian brewing tradition, how complicated, expensive, time consuming etc. it is. A lot of this is more good marketing than justified prices, it is what it is but there is no need to be on the side of the people who are taking your money. Not in all cases is it the breweries who are making the money – think of the prices of lambic’s in the USA.

 

Not disagreeing with you and not taking any sides. Just stating a fact. Sours cost a hell of a lot more than most beers. Like I said, if I could get it at the price you stated in your earlier post then I would most defintely enjoy it more often. But thanks for the lengthy dissertation anyway. I am sure some on here learned something from it. I am well aware of the price gouging that goes on with the import of 'hard to find' or limited sour beers. Again, the reason I enjoy them as opposed to swilling away on them like they were a 6 pack of Bud Light.

 

Sorry for the long quote and short answer, but this is just how it goes.

 

Sours are the new IPA.

 

Nice perspective. I remember thinking how much cheaper Cantillon was when I visited Brussels a couple years ago.

While the elements of making most sour beers--equipment for a barrel-aging program, storage space and time--do increase the cost in theory, the equipment cost can be amortized over several years, so while there is a sunk cost, unless you just stink at making sour beers, you will likely recoup those costs without the need to inflate retail prices. So really, the cost is storage space (can also be amortized as part of plant & property) and time (this is the only cost that cannot really be mitigated).

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think American sour brewers have taken advantage of the fact that some of the best sours from Belgium cost an arm and a leg here in the States to raise their own prices, because their heaviest competitors have high prices. However, the fact that is missed is that the bulk of the reason for the cost from Belgium-based sours comes from the lack of widespread distribution (so retailers can mark-up prices at the shelf level because the know demand is high and supply is low) as well as the fact that shipping from Europe is damn expensive.

It can be a tough pill to swallow, but it's not likely to change anytime soon unless the demand for sours decreases or the Belgian sour makers decide that they want to aggressively pursue the U.S. market and therefore work to reduce the impact distribution costs have on the consumer price.

 

Agreed regarding the costs & how USA brewers took advantage of the situation. Some additional ideas:

It is interesting to compare the difference in price between regular Orval and Orval aged for 6 months sold in certain bars in Belgium (don’t know if this practice exists in USA). They are sold for a higher price but an increase of price which is a fraction of what American brewers demand for sours – quite of few of these aged for comparable durations. Most bars ask about 1 euro extra, given the profit taken by the establishement, the brewery must be asking less than that.

Barrels are not that expensive unless if you are seeking a specific barrel (like Pappy for instance). Most brewers take whatever is easiest to get – hence the prevalence of Bourbon Barrel aging in USA while for instance wine and other beverages are far more likely in Europe. They take from small producers, old barrels which they don’t want anymore, negotiate etc. Toccalmatto actually gets paid money take wine barrels from wineries which are very eager to get rid of brett infested barrels. Which are almost certain death for a winery but as we know are very liked by breweries and their customers.

Certain lambic brewers can be interested in pursuing the American market. Lindemans comes instantly to mind, same about Mort Subite, Belle-Vue & Timmermans but this will mostly not regard the traditional, non-sweetened stuff. Lindemans is in the process of doing this. Boon is busy doubling production but not sure about any American ambitions. None of these guys will be capable of producing traditional product in sufficient enough amounts any time soon. 3F, Cantillon, De Cam, Girardin, Hanssens & Tilquin will not be doing this obviously any time soon. Rodenbach seems quite interested and could pursue the states.