Sour priming

wasn't there the discussion before about bombers providing more funk than 330 mL bottles?

 

Just to clarify, I bottled the 6 week old sour prematurely, against the advise of many BAs, including I believe OldSock. Even so, it didn't create bottle bombs of 12oz standard reused bottles... not that I would ever do that agian... and YMMV!

As a side, Mike, I haven't forgot about the Lambic, Sour Blackberry Blonde, and Sour Mango Blonde w/ DHs, I was waiting on the Mango one to carb up and am moving in a few weeks. Will mail them out to you come post move so if something goes wrong they will return them to the correct address.

 

Let us know how those beers are in a couple years. They will foam, if not gush. May explode before then as well.

 

I've never noticed a difference between my sours in various bottle sizes, but then I don't think I've ever done a side-by-side. Was there a theory, because I can’t think of one. Larger bottles might tend to be more resistant to oxidation (smaller ratio of head-space to beer, same cap for twice the volume etc.).

 

might have to do with pressure. i'd have to use some chemistry knowledge to figure out whether or not the carbonation pressure of the beer in a bomber would result in greater neck/empty space pressure, thereby creating more funk....

 

I don't see why the pressure would be different, but it isn't my area of expertise. Is there a study suggesting higher pressure results in production of more 4-ethylphenol (or any other phenol)? Pressure tends to reduce ester production for brewer's yeast. If anything I find the character you get bottle conditioning with Brett to be more expressive, but also less harsh and more complex than bulk aging.

 

As a side discussion, when should I fruit my sour? I brewed roughly 9 mos ago. OG was 1.052. Fermenting with a stepped up starter from 2x beatifications, a Temptation batch 3, and FfaC batch 2. I havent done a gravity check yet, but it is starting to smell mighty sour. Does gravity determine when to fruit it? I was thinking most likely cherries peaches or apricots. I will determine the fruit based upon the season, and the taste of the brew.

Was also going to add some french saison yeast when I added the fruit to clean up the fermentation, and also to give it something to accurately carbonate on. Thoughts?

 

I tend to wait until a beer is just about ready to bottle (stable gravity etc.) to add fruit. I prefer a fresh fruit character for most sour beers, so after 2-3 months on the fruit I want it to be ready to bottle. I'd rather let the Brett and bacteria eat the fruit sugars, but pitching fresh yeast could certainly speed things along.

 

Thanks for the advice

 

Ive heard brett tends to put off more of its characteristic flavors when it is stressed by low available sugars or high pressures. When you bulk age with brett its typically not much pressure so I would think that would stress the brett less.

As for small vs large bottle flavor changes, the pressure shouldnt be much different, though I could see an argument made based off the head space ratio. I wonder if that new O2 added in small volume to the yeast being given new food could be the resuly? The ppm of yeast to volume may also be different based of when the bottle was filled and flocculated yeast starting back up with the bottling sugars?

 

all right..you dudes are making me think....

if a bottle was the same height but wider, then the pressure on the yeast that would (in theory) be at the bottom of the bottle would be the same. but if a bomber is used - which is taller than a 330 mL bottle - then there is more pressure (significant? i don't know) on the yeast that would be at the bottom of the bottle. more beer volume, ergo, more weight.

now, not sure how pellicles come into play with all of this or if they come into play. but i'd assume volume, not neck air space, would be more of a flavour factor. guess the real test would be bulk fermentors/carboys with the exact same neck space as a bottle. that would eliminate one variable and see if the weight of the beer volume has an effect. you know, just like the pressure exerted on a diver when he swims deep versus the pressure swimming sideways. deeper you go, the more Boyle's law applies, right?

 

It's all about the height of the column of fluid above the yeast for the added pressure, not volume...

30 cm (1 foot) of water is about 3 kPa (~3% of atmospheric).

The added pressure in the bottle neck would be more significant I would think, and that should be the same on both if carbonated to the same level.

 

Stress really doesn't play a huge role in Brett flavor development in my experience (and based on the science I’m aware of). The amount of “funk” is dependent on the strain of Brett, how the mash is treated, and whether the primary yeast strain is a big phenol producer. As kjyost suggests, my understanding is that hydrostatic pressure is only a big factor in commercial brewing where you are dealing with such large volumes.

Has anyone actually noticed a difference between two bottles from the same batch that you could point to package size as a significant factor?

 

did you just challenge me to do a horizontal???

now, the question would also have to involve time after bottling. perhaps after a certain time, flavours even out. so i'd be tempted to try this 1 month, 4 months, 8 months and 12 months after bottling.

 

All I'm saying is that it seems like a waste of effort to theorize on the origins of an effect that no one seems to have observed!

I couldn't find the discussion you mentioned re: bombers vs. 330mL, got a link?

 

I certainly havnt done enough stuff with brett to notice this. Im hoping to do a brett primary beer soon. I think my comment came from something I heard on the brewing network when Chad Yakobson at crooked stave was interviewed. My understand was that it acts very different when you pitch it in primary as opposed to secondary.

If we want to be scientific about this, you should probably mail one of each to a few of us and we can post our tasting notes on here Id pitch in for shipping if you say your sours are good...

 

it was from a post on here that you took part in...got pretty high in post count...maybe 6-9 months ago? idunno....

and there is no waste of effort if consumption is part of the exercise!

if you want to bark up a tree, i suggest two things:

1. don't do it to a Cnd homebrewer, since shipping across the border is a huge pain in the ass
2. OldSock probably has the tastiest tree of us all. Alls I got is my sour saison bottled a year ago (and still killer), my sour mango w/brett clauss (bottled 8 months ago and still great) and a brett blonde that was bottled 3 weeks ago and will be tasted today. all my other sour beer are sleeping in carboys (5 types), waiting for June bottling.

 

haha fair enough. Let us know what you find!

 

I have a sour saison that never carbed up nearly as much as I would have liked. I didn't add wine/champagne yeast at bottling and I'm not sure I had enough viable cells to do the job. I was thinking of trying to get the bottles as warm as possible this summer by leaving them in the attic for a couple months to see what happens. Anyone think this is worth a shot? likely to do anything? or should I just drink them undercarbed? any other suggestions?

Thanks

 

I've had a few beers that didn't carb up easily probably more to do with the temp here in MA than anything else. Swirling and moving to a warm attic is definitely worth a try before re-yeasting.