Sour recipe critique please

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by aqsprint, Aug 14, 2013.

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  1. aqsprint

    aqsprint Initiate (0) Feb 1, 2005 Michigan

    Here is the recipe for my first sour ale. I am trying to make a Flanders brown, kind of like Lafolie. Any feed back would be great!
    10gal, 1.070, 21 SRM, 19.2 IBU

    57.7% 2- row 16 lbs
    14.4 % Munich 4lbs
    12.6% crystal 80 3.5lbs
    7.2% Vienna 2lbs
    3.6% Cara pils 1lb
    3.6% Belgian candi syrup 45L 1lb
    .9% Chocolate malt .25lb

    19.2 IBU Styrian Goldings boil 60 min
  2. doobgoob

    doobgoob Initiate (59) Apr 24, 2010 Texas

    Looks pretty good, though you might want to cut the hops in half. No reason to have that many IBUs, as they limit sourness to some extent (lacto doesn't like em, but pedio don't give a fuck). Also, even if you brew it as is you can make an awesome beer as (IMO) sours are really all about the bugs. #1 priority is to make sure you take care of those bugs the best you can (e.g., limit oxygen, keep coolish)
  3. jmich24

    jmich24 Devotee (480) Jan 28, 2010 Michigan

    What yeasts/bacteria are you using to sour?
  4. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (746) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I would be concerned with the 4.5# of crystal malts. That is over 15% crystal. I personally would not want that much. If you are doing an Oud Bruin you will have a very sweet beer since the Sacc and Lacto will not eat the dextrins since there is no Pedio or Brett in an Oud Bruin. If you are doing a Flanders Red I would cut to around 10% crystal blend of 80 & Special B (no carapils) and mash around 158*F. With the dark crystals I would drop the Belgian syrup and replace the gravity points with more Vienna. With a super low FG you will have a 9% beer on your hands.
  5. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,917) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin

    If he pitches the Roseleare yeast blend, the Brett in there will work on the dextrins and it won't be as sweet. But I have never used more than 11% crystal in my own sours, so can't speak directly to what to expect here.
  6. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (746) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Not trying to be the style police, but an Oud Bruin is straight Sacc and Lacto, no Pedio, Brett, oak, acetic, sherry flur, basically no Roselare. If he does Roselare or any other sour blend he has a Flanders Red not a Flanders Brown.
  7. TNGabe

    TNGabe Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2012 Tennessee

    Not trying to be the style police either, but oud bruin is only different from flanders red in the eyes of the bjcp and Michael Jackson.

    OP, don't know if you looked on NB's web page, but they list the ingredients there. You're pretty close, just a couple extra malts and the syrup added. IBUs very close to NB's stated 18. Lacto is more hop tolerant than most people think.
  8. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,917) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin

    I don't think you are correct about this. I'm sure Wild Brews and Brewing Classic Styles both suggest that it contains a greater mix of bugs. In any event, both recommend using Roseleare yeast blend in Flander's Brown. My only authentic taste of the style, , had the cherry pie flavors of Brett lambicus, and other reviews of the beer seem to agree.
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,917) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin

    I guess I need to dial this comment back a bit. Wild Brews, when discussing modern Flander's brown, says nothing of Brett but does mention lacto and pedio. In passages that do not make the modern distinction, the red and brown beers of Flanders are discussed as being more similar. My take is that it once had Brett, but perhaps now that it is fermented in stainless, it does not. Still, the Liefman's beer I linked certainly seemed Bretty to me in its cherry-ness.
  10. doobgoob

    doobgoob Initiate (59) Apr 24, 2010 Texas

    yeah if OP wants something like a la folie, (s)he'll have to add more than just lacto. also, if you think about how the style was developed (i.e., spontaneous ferment), it doesn't make a lot of sense that only lacto is used, even if thats what the bjcp says. if it were me i would pitch roselare (or ideally ECY bugs but those are hard to get) in primary, put it in a dark cool spot for 18 months and try to forget about it
  11. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    I agree too many IBU's, cut them back to <12

    I would also nix the syrup, it wont add anything to this beer and will bump up the abv without helping feed the bacteria over the long ferment (plus its $$)

    I wouldnt worry about the high % of crystal, though I dont think I would use that much 80L, I would instead sub in some Special B, and aromatic, then nix the chocolate/carapils - youll pick up the color elsewhere, and why not use more flavorful grains? as it stands very little of the malty flavor will make it through anyway, so why not start with more of it to begin with
  12. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (746) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Yeah, I am going off of Wild Brews which says the Brown has no Brett, is secondary stainless only, with a mix of lactic acid bacteria and Sacc only. Also the ECY23 Oud Bruin which is Sacc and a mix of several Lacto strains. I realize that there are some (if not many) current "Oud Bruins" on the market that are made with more bacterias and Brett strain(s), even oaked, I have enjoyed a few. There seems to be a difference in BJCP (for homebrewers) and the broader categories used here and in judging commercial beers.
  13. aqsprint

    aqsprint Initiate (0) Feb 1, 2005 Michigan

    I do plan to add Brett Lacto and pedo to the beer. If that doesn’t make it a Old Bruin I’m ok with that, I like the flavor profile. I was going to primary ferment with Wyeast 1056 and maybe add the Roeselare blend too (is that necessary?) After primary Im going to put it into a barrel with the Roeselare and maybe some dregs.

    I appreciate everybody’s input!
  14. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (746) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Just as a thought, if you have a different yeast to ferment with other than 1056 I would use that instead. One of the contributions Brett makes is that it transforms esters in the beer to new esters. If you like the character of Brett I would use a more flavorful primary strain, a Belgian or even English strain would be a better choice than 1056 as it is very clean. I think you will like the switch. Vinnie @ RR uses 1056 on his clean American beers, but uses the house Belgian to ferment the base beers for the sours.
  15. aqsprint

    aqsprint Initiate (0) Feb 1, 2005 Michigan

    Thanks jbakajust1 I will do that. Would you suggest a specific Belgian strain? I was thinking WLP530.
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  16. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (746) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Anything that gives a lot of esters but not a lot of phenols. Brett can create phenols on its own and when paired with low FG, and tannins from oak (if used), high ABV, too many phenols could take away from the final desired results. Looking at the WLP description I would go w/ 500 over 530, fruitier is better as those are the esters Brett will transform.
  17. joshrosborne

    joshrosborne Initiate (0) Jun 14, 2010 Michigan

    Roselaire already contains a Belgian sacch strain in the blend (I've heard that it's 3522), so I wouldn't pitch anymore sacch. Seems like a waste of money.
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  18. jae

    jae Aspirant (213) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    Along with a Belgian primary sacc strain and a sour blend, I'd pitch bottle dregs at primary inoculation with mor bottle dregs going into secondary. ~ 20 IBUs of hops are fine, btw . . . I routinely use 15-25 IBU and have never had a souring problem.
    joshrosborne and jbakajust1 like this.
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