Sour Rye (STOUT?)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Weazelwacker, Nov 1, 2018.

?

Brew it or Not?

  1. Brew It

    44.4%
  2. Or Not

    55.6%
  1. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    If this is posted in the wrong place fill free to adjust. Or at least let me know. Still new to the forum.

    Good Morning Folks,

    I am just playing around with an idea here so feedback is ore then welcome. I'm not sure if this beer will be a Russian Imperial Stout or not but that is the profile I used to build this recipe in Brewers Friend. I also posted all the OG- FG, ABV stuff at the bottom due to it will not be to accurate (by the time you read the recipe you will agree- hopefully).

    GRAINS
    12lbs Rye
    2lbs. Roasted Barley
    2lbs. Caramel- Crystal 120L
    2lbs. Maris Otter Pale
    2lbs. Roasted Pale 2 Row
    (2 lbs. Beets added during boil at 30 minutes remaining)

    20 lbs. TOTAL

    MASH
    90 minute mash at 154 at 1qt. per lbs. (5 gal)
    Mash out at 168. (plan to use as much water as necessary to get a 10 gallon in kettle)
    120 Minute Boil. (roughly 8 gallons remaining)

    Yeast
    US-05 (4 packs with starter)
    After Primary I will add 1 Lbs. shredded beets and Brettanomyces Brux.

    Rack off beets at 30 days. Onto American Medium Oak spirals soaked for 30 days in Jameson. (or a barrel if they get in in time)

    Age on oak for a min. of 6 months.

    1.064
    Final Gravity
    1.012
    ABV
    6.76%
    IBU
    78.64
    SRM
    39.51
    Mash pH
    5.26 ✓
     
  2. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (185) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I've never brewed anything like this, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but:

    I think that's a lot of roasted barley. I guess it's only 10%, but I don't think it scales linearly. If I were brewing this I would cut back on it. Also, what is "roasted pale 2 row"? Are you planning on browning 2 row malt up in your oven?

    It's also obviously a lot of rye (malted, I hope). Depending on how you plan on mashing, that could be a very painful runoff/sparge, since rye is notoriously gummy.

    You don't need (or want) a starter with dry yeast. Just rehydrate. I also doubt you need 4 packs, but I haven't done the math.

    Your title indicates that you think this will be a sour beer, but Brett brux. will not make a beer very sour on its own. Funky maybe. If you want significant sourness you need bacteria.

    Here is a Mad Fermentation post on brewing with beets. Not the same style, but maybe helpful anyway.

    I'll say it even though it's exactly the kind of advice no one wants to follow (including me, if I'm being honest): if you're new to brewing, or new to recipe design, maybe be a little less adventurous until you've got a few similar batches under your belt. Why not try brewing a more mainstream RIS and then tweak it bit by bit when you know it works? Here's a recipe for an American stout (not an RIS) that this forum generated collectively, and I think it's regarded as being pretty good.
     
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  3. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    WTF . . . I mean . . . Jesus.

    What do you want with this beer? What's your goal from an aroma and flavor standpoint? There's WAY too much going on for me to determine that myself.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  4. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    Thanks for the response. (Seriously)

    My thoughts with the Brett, is it would add a little interesting flavors so I suppose calling it sour would not be the most accurate. I was playing with the idea of doing both Brett and Pedio, but I was afraid I would loose to much control over the flavor as it ages. Its possible that I have completely I misunderstood what I've been reading.

    The roasted 2 row is suppose to be toasted but its basically the same thing (probably going to switch it out with smoked 2 row). Also I have been brewing for a couple years now and when I started I just dove into all grain, and concocting my own brews. I have never brewed with rye, or beets, or Brett, and it my first stout. So its just the sort of abuse I like to put myself through lol.

    My rye will be malted and I'm still debating on if I want to do this as a BIAB or mash it in my tun.

    What is your reasoning for rolling back on the roasted barley? Is it a bitterness issue?
     
  5. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington


    Its all about learning with this one. I'm not afraid to dump a batch of beer if it fails, but if it works no harm done. Kind of just going to send it, and see what happens. Let the beer Gods decide.
     
  6. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (89) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    Is it possible you flipped the amounts of Rye (malt?) and Maris Otter?
     
  7. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    Nope it is 12lbs. of Malted Rye and 2 lbs. of Maris Otter
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Better add rice hulls then.
     
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  9. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    For filter?
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Yes, to keep your runoff from getting stuck.
     
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  11. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (185) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Basically yes. You could use the term "acrid" or whatever instead of "bitter," but in any case my concern would be too much character from the roasted barley.

    The Brett is maybe the most interesting and historically authentic part of the recipe. (It feels as though the recipe is aiming to be very Russian, but to my knowledge RIS would not have traditionally been brewed with either rye or beets.) It should push the final gravity down a bit, add some funkiness, and scavenge oxygen, helping the beer age more gracefully. Pedio would definitely make this a sour beer, so it's a question of what you want.

    Incidentally are you planning on adding hops?
     
  12. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    oh crap, just noticed I forgot to add them in the OP.

    2oz. Galena
    1oz. Chinook
    1oz. Fuggles

    All added 30 minutes from end of boil.

    side note can I edit my first post?
     
  13. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (185) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    There's a window on editing posts, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, I believe. Obviously it is long gone for your original one.
     
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  14. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Disciple (385) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    I know nothing on sour beers, but have made many beet beers so, concerning beets, be sure you peel them well or you will get some nasty tastes in your beer.

    As brother rip asked, I will advise swaping marris and rye amounts. Also cut the roasted barley and 120 in half. Otherwise I fear it will be a dump.

    Good luck in your desicions
     
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  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Just when you think you know someone...
     
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  16. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    What is your opinion on adding beets to boil.
    What flavor profile am I looking to get (I assume earthy and dirt)
    How much do they brake down in secondary (mess bag worthy)
    I know fresh is the way to go but have you ever used canned?

    I am considering your guys input on grain bill (greatly appreciated by the way). I will probably post a new version once I have made on.
     
  17. Lukass

    Lukass Savant (917) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio

    ...Even more Jesus!
     
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  18. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    Reworked Grain Bill.

    8lbs. Rye
    8lbs. Maris Otter
    6lbs. Pale 2 Row
    1lbs. Crystal 120L
    1lbs. Roasted Barely

    Hops
    2oz. Galena
    1oz. Chinook
    1oz. Fuggles

    All added 30 minutes from end of boil.
     
  19. Lukass

    Lukass Savant (917) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio

    Something like a sour rye wine sounds much more interesting here. But then again, I’ve had some sour stouts that are pretty tasty. Either way, I’d cut out the beets. Age on cherries instead perhaps? My two cents
     
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  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Sure, but can you answer the messiah's question, i.e.what do you want with this beer. IOW, what's the goal(s)? If it's just to throw semi-random ingredients together to see what happens, more power to you, but without context there's not much useful anyone can offer.
     
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  21. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    My goals
    1. Brew a high ABV rye beer. (stout or otherwise but preferably stout)
    2. See what I can get by adding beets
    3. Use Brett to help with long term storage and add some complex flavors
    4. Age in oak (prefer a used barrel but will probably end up using spirals)
    Looking to bottle at the end of 6 months, and try one each year until its gone
     
  22. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    So...you want a big beer, suitable for long term aging. What do you want it to taste like, beyond basic stout flavors? What are you hoping to get from all that rye?

    Regarding Brett and long term storage...it's true that many Brett beers are aged. That's mainly because Brett works rather slowly when it's processing the byproducts of sacch yeast fermentation. But I don't really think of Brett as a preservative. If you want a big, age-able stout, you don't need Brett (particularly if you want it to keep tasting like a stout).
     
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  23. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (185) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I think it depends on what you're looking for over time. Here are a couple of recipes from the Mad Fermentationist blog (recipe 1, recipe 2). See in particular the tasting notes in the video posted here. Note though that he used Campden tablets to kill(?) the Brett before bottling.

    Also bear in mind that Tonsmeire is particularly fond of Brett character, more so than a lot of beer drinkers probably would be. So just because he enjoys its contribution doesn't mean you necessarily will.
     
  24. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    Basically I a hung up on using rye, beets and brett. As for flavor I have no idea what I want it to be. Just going to see what happens.

    I read both those pages a couple days ago when I was first looking into this idea. I had also mulled it over (using Campden) guess Ill see what it looks like at the end of the ageing.

    I know this is not how most folks make their brews but it has worked out well for me so far. it has been keeping it interesting.
     
    #24 Weazelwacker, Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  25. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    OK . . . that's a LITTLE better. Here's my $0.02.

    Don't use them all together, just use two. Rye and beets could work in a pale beer. Rye and Brett works wonderfully. Beets and Brett would also work very well, but, again, in a pale beer. Hell, you could probably make a very good beer with all three, as long as you didn't use them in a dark/roasty base beer.

    IMO, the big phenols and high attentuation levels that most Brett. species produce work against the body, sweetness, and roast character that most imperial stouts need to be excellent. A highly attenuated, acrid, clove-bomb is something most people would shy away from.
     
  26. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Kind of hard to critique a recipe with those parameters. So I'm out I guess. Others will soldier on.
     
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  27. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    So . . . I'd recommend doing two separate beers. One as a oak & Jameson infused rye imperial stout. The other as a blonde Brett beer with beets. What color of beets are you using, btw?

    Why would you need 4 packets of yeast and why would you make a starter with dry yeast?
     
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  28. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (89) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    That's an elephant in the room type question when considering the overall character of a beet-beer. The earthiness of golden/yellow beets is subtler than red beets and the goldens taste sweeter, at least in my experience when cooking them for the table.

    >> > :thinking_face: me trying to imagine the color resulting from blonde and dark purple.....
     
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  29. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I mean, they're going to basically be for color contribution and some fermentables, but I wouldn't expect much flavor from them unless you're using a metric asston.
     
  30. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (89) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    Going by the original and revised grain bill my hunch would OP was thinking red beets.
    Regarding flavor contribution do you think one could detect a difference in "earthy-dirt" (not sweetness) between brews with and without beets, sans a "metric asston"....and even more so between red or gold beets?
     
  31. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I would think so, too.

    Important to remember that things don't taste the same when they are fermented, or, in this case, boiled, separated from the liquid, and the liquid is fermented.
     
  32. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (89) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    hmmm...I vaguely remember something to that effect.
    Maybe beetmaster @GormBrewhouse can weigh in on whether an earthy/dirty character can make it from beet to bottle, and to what extent
     
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  33. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (829) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Didn't read all of the comments, but this seems like a trainwreck consumed by a tsunami
     
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  34. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (836) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Then lit on fire.
     
  35. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    This is gonna be an incredible mess! I think if not for the beets it could possibly work. I just don’t see what they are adding in a dark beer that is likely to be strong on roast and Brett characteristics. Detecting beets in a beer like this will be like finding a needle in a haystack.

    Either way I’ll follow. OP please report back if you Brew this beer.
     
  36. Weazelwacker

    Weazelwacker Initiate (26) Aug 11, 2018 Washington

    This is the motivation I needed I guess. Do to my list of beers this winter, I probably wont get to it until late December, but I will post when I get it started.
     
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  37. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Disciple (385) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    hahaah far from a master

    me and the foundry master brewed several beer beers ranging from standard pales with 1-3 lbs beets in the boil, to 3 lbs beets in the mash tun and addedginger root at bottleing.

    first batch were frozen then thawed beets i had grown semi peeled and washed and put into the boil at 20. The time meansnothingbecause I was at the foundry and let's say things can go from fun to bedlam. Any how it was a dirt tasting brew at best.

    Next beer was beets on the boil at 10 minutes cause the first fasted like bitter dirt. Fully peeled and scrubbed, better red color and acceptable beer.

    Last,was 2+\- lbs in secondary totally peelers scrubbed then chopped to death
    And in the soup for 1 week. Some beet tasted, no dirt and basically a red pale ale.
     
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