Spitters for bitters

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by mudbug, Aug 17, 2015.

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  1. augiecarton

    augiecarton Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2010 New Jersey

    i strongly suggest reading chapter 1 of this book (the whole thing actually) http://www.amazon.com/The-Botany-Desire-Plants-Eye-World/dp/0375760393
     
    #21 augiecarton, Aug 19, 2015
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  2. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I've read all of Pollan's books, He is one of the reasons i got so interested in this subject. Thanks!
    Do you press them first? Or add the whole apple?
     
    #22 mudbug, Aug 19, 2015
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  3. rocdoc1

    rocdoc1 Savant (1,215) Jan 13, 2006 New Mexico

    I freeze them first, then throw them in whole.
     
    #23 rocdoc1, Aug 19, 2015
  4. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks for the reply, just out of curiosity, have you ever pressed them for juice?
     
    #24 mudbug, Aug 19, 2015
  5. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    This thread is bordering on cider talk... :grimacing:
     
    #25 SFACRKnight, Aug 19, 2015
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  6. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    No, cider is entirely made from the fermentable sugars from fruit. What this thread is about is historical use of heirloom varieties of apples called "spitters" which were readily available at the time German immigrants landed in America and started brewing beer (yes people brewed beer long before that , but not at anything like a commercial endeavor)
    . My question and research is to find out if bitter apples (spitters) could be used in stead of bittering hops. At the time hops were available in some parts of the country but bitter apples were everywhere. It seems logical to me that this has been tried but honestly, there is almost no information that I can find about the subject. ( which of course leads to the conclusion that it's either the stupidest question ever, or nobody knows, which makes it a very good question indeed ) IMO there is a nexus in American history with beer and cider.
     
    #26 mudbug, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  7. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I want to put a caveat on my post above. I'm not just interested in history, but if I'm right, there may be some new things to explore. Beer seems to me to be one of the leaders in innovation with ingredients and taste. The endless variety of wild apples seems a good fit, but I might be ignorant of the realities of brewing (no shit). That is why I posted the original question.
     
    #27 mudbug, Aug 20, 2015
  8. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    However this is beer advocate, and if our borderline cider discussions get deleted by the bros in the homebrew forums then it stands to reason the ones in beer talk forums should be deleted as well. Maybe post the same question in the homebrew forum and you may get some brewers to share some hands on experience. Or your thread may just get deleted.
     
    #28 SFACRKnight, Aug 20, 2015
  9. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    There are numerous books on the topic of old recipes for Colonial era alcoholic beverages, with many recipes for various "beers" made without hops and/or using molasses or treacle, maple syrup/sugar, brown sugar or fruit/vegetables as fermentables - i.e., beverages that would not be considered beer(malt beverage) today. And many others that used various herbs/spices other than hops (such as "spruce, ginger, lemon, cream of tartar, sweet fern, prince's pine, spice wood, sarsaparilla, winter-green, allspice, cloves, bay leaves, sage, checkerberry, essence of Citron, Caspsicum, Essentia Binae, Aniseed, * etc.) and other flavoring ingredients but there's none that I see that used apples in a beverage referred to as "beer" as a bittering agent.

    * Just a quick list scanning a few recipes in two books I own:
    Early American Beverages, John Hull Brown, Tuttle, 1966.
    The Proceedings of the Company of Amateur Brewers, Anonymous, Privately printed, 1932
    ​
    The first book also covers "Cider and Perry". There are other similar books, as well (Amazon recommends a few others), so much of the research has been done. So, while it can't really be disproved that someone, somewhere didn't brew a "beer" with bitter apples, it doesn't seem that there was a tradition of it, or records of it that survived.
     
    #29 jesskidden, Aug 21, 2015
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  10. papat444

    papat444 Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,961) Dec 28, 2006 Canada (QC)
    Pooh-Bah

    Or post on CiderAdvocate :wink:
     
    #30 papat444, Aug 21, 2015
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  11. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Tell that to the Dogfish Head haters...
     
    #31 sjverla, Aug 21, 2015
  12. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Back in the hop shortage days circa 2008, a guy I know made a homebrewed beer using a large part of Molassas for the fermentables and and lemon peels, it worked better than I would ever have guessed.

    To the OP's question, I have had a taste of the Ellis Bitter apple. It was a surprise as to how bitter it was, but I don't think it was as bad as chewing on a hop. One might get enough bitterness to balance a beer such as a blonde ale or a AAL, but for other styles there would be too much of the apples needed, turning it into cider.
     
    #32 hopfenunmaltz, Aug 21, 2015
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  13. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,157) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    In Memoriam Pooh-Bah Trader

    Can't help you with the problem of the beer made with sour apples, but I live in apple country and late in the season there is one orchard around here that specializes in heirloom apples, such as Russets, which I pleasured to give to my Dad when he was alive. Let me know the real names of the "spitters" varieties you are interested in, and I can certainly check if they will be available, and get some if they are. And if "spitters' are simply feral trees, I have a multitude of them near to my house, including one on my property that still bears, and can pick as many as you'd like.
     
    #33 cavedave, Aug 21, 2015
  14. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks. But a trip to New York is a little out of the way for apples.
     
    #34 mudbug, Aug 21, 2015
  15. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,157) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    In Memoriam Pooh-Bah Trader

    Apples ship well, and I wouldn't even have to tell UPS they are marindades.
     
    #35 cavedave, Aug 21, 2015
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  16. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks again, but since I don't homebrew I'd probably just let them moulder until I put them in the compost. I've located a few farms in my parts (PNW) that have some very old apple trees that are bitter/sour as all get out. Contacted a few and while they seem to think my questions are interesting they don't have any real information about the use of the pomace (leaving of the fruit after pressing) in any kind of beer. It just seems strange to me that there is such a lack of information out there about this. As Jesskiddin noted above. I'm beginning to wonder if there is something basicly horrible about the whole thing, like it turns beer into undrinkable malt jam or something. Oh well you never learn if you don't ask. Cheers!
     
    #36 mudbug, Aug 21, 2015
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  17. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,762) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    So I just wanted to thank the replies to this thread and share what I've found out from Heirloom apple growers that so kindly took the time to respond to my admittedly whacky questions
    The pommice (leavings after pressing bitter apples ) is indeed quite bitter but not nearly as much as fresh hops and nobody knows of anyone that has attempted to brew beer with it. They were to a person intrigued by the possibility (which I'm sure garnered the replies).
    So this is what I'd like to do.
    Post this thread in the home brewers section. I've never been there as I'm not a brewer , but I would value anybody's insight. What I'll do is post the link for this thread there, if that isn't the correct procedure I beg for help from someone that may guide me. Thanks in advance!
     
    #37 mudbug, Aug 28, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
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