Stout or Porter?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by RandyCongdon, Jun 15, 2017.

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  1. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
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    The mark of a good kolsch is that you cannot, without some expertise, tell the difference between that and a true lager. =)
     
    #161 utopiajane, Jun 24, 2017
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  2. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    Have you ever read anything that explains why Fritz Maytag called Anchors brew a Porter instead of a Stout back in 1972?
     
    #162 dennis3951, Jun 24, 2017
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  3. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    I've never seen anything specific from Maytag. I have seen ads from SF bars in the 50s advertising "STEAM BEER OR PORTER" but, while Anchor was the only steam beer brewer left, the porter might have come from elsewhere.

    He did discuss a "dark" steam beer the brewery made at the time he purchased it made with a brewing syrup, and when they got complaints from bars that it wasn't as dark as it used to be, they'd "solve that by just adding a little more caramel coloring". (That could have been sold as "Porter" by some bars?)

    Maytag in several interviews in the early years of 1960-70s, also was quoted admiringly about "Guinness Stout" but up until around that time the bottled Guinness in the US was Foreign Extra Stout (~ 7-8%), Guinness Extra Stout in bottles just hitting these shores and the lower alcohol, kegged Draught apparently still pretty rare outside of metro areas.

    In one article/interview after the Porter was released in the early '70s it was described as "a black, bitter brew stronger than beer and similar to, but not quite as heavy as, importer Guinness stout" but unclear if that was Maytag's, the reporter's or a combination opinion.

    I kinda think it was the abv combined with the US having a stronger tradition of porter brewing right up to that point (Stegmaier, Yuengling, Narragansett, Krueger, Ballantine) - some of them bottom-fermented porter, which Anchor Porter initially was.
     
    #163 jesskidden, Jun 24, 2017
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  4. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    The near disappearance of Porter from the Uk in the mid 20th century was more apparent than real.Brewers simply relabelled it as Stout. The name vanished but the beer did not. Mackeson Stout was 3% ABV for a long time.
     
    #164 marquis, Jun 24, 2017
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  5. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,811) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
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    (Emphasis mine.)

    JK, thanks for bringing up a point I was afraid to (seeing as being fairly straightforward had already been taken as license to distort by certain parties for the sole reason of being contrarian rather than any attempt to meaningfully contribute to the thread).

    That point being: some people are quite insistent on maintaining a historic context for this argument - so long as that historic context only includes the parts of history they prefer.

    Modern US brewers clearly use porter and stout interchangeably, bowing perhaps to internal criteria, but certainly not external; numerous examples have been cited in this thread. That, too, is historic context, albeit viewed threw a much narrower lens. The nature of history is that while one can root a data point in a place in time, one cannot unequivocally affix that temporal context to all places in time before or after (or to all countries, for that matter).

    In other words, the earlier claim (not by you) that one style of beer has historic relevance, while another does not, is silly. New England IPA has no historic relevance in China, but if it has become an accepted style over the last few years in the US (with consistent boundaries and criteria), then it quite simply is a style. There are no styles of which I am aware that were handed down perfectly formed on tablets of stone on a mountaintop. Each of them at some point had no "historic" relevance, and only attained such via the passage of time and persistence of the style.

    Perhaps New England IPAs will not be around in 500 years; perhaps they will. Perhaps the dominant craft brewing culture in Serbia in the year 2055 will interchangeably use the terms Imperial IPA and West Coast Style IPA to describe the same kind of beer. Such is the nature of evolution; things don't stay the same just because some people really, really want them to. :wink:
     
    #165 Roguer, Jun 24, 2017
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  6. NCMonte

    NCMonte Initiate (0) Jan 28, 2014 North Carolina

    See I disagree, I fully believe all porters are modern stouts.
     
    #166 NCMonte, Jun 24, 2017
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  7. peteboiler

    peteboiler Zealot (690) Dec 16, 2010 Florida

    I am going to start a conspiracy theory. Unless I have missed it, we have not heard from Bigtime craft breweries weighing in on this topic. Surely they must know the difference - if there truly is one - considering they create the beers that are labeled PORTER or STOUT. So the conspiracy that I am offering is that they are the same, but the breweries don't want to make a declaration to the public.

    UFO's are NOT real (The Government) while hiding evidence in Hanger 18...
     
    #167 peteboiler, Jun 25, 2017
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  8. Squire

    Squire Grand Pooh-Bah (4,385) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
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    My own conspiracy theory is Big Beer will cheerfully label the same beer either Porter or Stout depending on which name sells best in a given geographic area.
     
    #168 Squire, Jun 25, 2017
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  9. sludgegnome

    sludgegnome Pundit (900) Mar 26, 2011 Pennsylvania

    This is the answer!
     
    #169 sludgegnome, Jun 25, 2017
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  10. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Big beer makes a stout or porter???
     
    #170 drtth, Jun 25, 2017
  11. Squire

    Squire Grand Pooh-Bah (4,385) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
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    Actually my point was what they would do regarding labeling. As for what they did in the past I believe so but don't recall exactly. I was born when Ike was still in the Army and there's a lot of stuff I think I remember.
     
    #171 Squire, Jun 25, 2017
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  12. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    You mean there was beer worth drinking back in the day? :slight_smile:

    Ike? Who is this "Ike" you speak of? :wink:
     
    #172 drtth, Jun 25, 2017
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  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    #173 JackHorzempa, Jun 25, 2017
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  14. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    And, before that (back around when Ike was in grade school) there was AB's "Black and Tan - the American Porter":
    [​IMG]
    Schlitz brewed one, too, pre-Pro:
    [​IMG]
     
    #174 jesskidden, Jun 25, 2017
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  15. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    And - this is for @Roguer - what sounds good to the consumer. Solopsitic stout? Or solopsistic porter?
     
    #175 utopiajane, Jun 25, 2017
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  16. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,811) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Oh my, clearly Solipsistic Stout - the alliteration is too perfect to pass up! (Perhaps, however, Pedantic Porter would sell as well around here....) :grinning:
     
    #176 Roguer, Jun 25, 2017
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I am not sure whether this would sell well with certain BAs since it comes a bit 'too close to home'!?!:rolling_eyes:

    Cheers!
     
    #177 JackHorzempa, Jun 25, 2017
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  18. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,811) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    That may or may not have been the implication. I Plead the 5th. :wink:
     
    #178 Roguer, Jun 25, 2017
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  19. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    And according to the book Amerikanische brauindustrie auf der weltausstellung in Chicago from 1894, the Porter made by Schlitz was bottom fermented and brewed to "between 19.5-20 degrees Balling". So quite a stout porter :stuck_out_tongue:.
     
    #179 Crusader, Jun 25, 2017
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  20. deleted_user_1007501

    deleted_user_1007501 Initiate (0) Jun 30, 2015

    I find it difficult to weed through the different tangents and heated responses. This has probably been said already.

    But, historically, porters are the second, and maybe third runnings of the stout's mash. Stout is the strong, full flavored first run. Porters are the second running, lighter and lower gravity.

    Back before prohibition, breweries wanted to make the best use of their grains. So they ran multiple mashes with the same grains. Resulting in things like porters, and, subsequently, small beers as well.

    Porters, in my view at least, fit a similar mold; low alcohol (4-6%), dry body, yet retain the malt bill's charactaristics.
     
    #180 deleted_user_1007501, Jun 26, 2017
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