Supplication and Consecration Clones

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by walows, May 2, 2012.

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  1. SetJon

    SetJon Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2013 New York

    I know this is an old thread but thought I'd ask. I have a Consecration clone based on your recipe going for about 4 months. It started developing a film yeast and now has some white spots on top (I think I left to much headspace) . I racked it off into another carboy that I'd purged with co2. Added some fully fermented black ipa to close out the headspace. I've never fermented beer for this long before. If it was hard cider, which I do a lot of, I'd sulphite to about 50-75 ppm but don't know if this would work here. Would that kill the bugs? I could repitch the brett/lacto/pedio blend but would rather not have to. Any ideas?
     
    #21 SetJon, Sep 30, 2013
  2. JrGtr

    JrGtr Pooh-Bah (1,775) Apr 13, 2006 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    If you're looking at white spots, it's more likely the pellicle from the bugs is forming. THat is a good thing if you're looking for a sour beer. Repeat: The white spots are from the lacto/pedio/brett.
    I did one from a Northern Brewer kit. I brewed it the week before Labor day 2012, racked onto red currants and pitched bugs about 3 weeks or so later, and bottled it early September this year. Has developed a nice sour character, I'm really happy with it.
    I kept my eyes on it to make sure the airlock didn't dry out, and was a bit nervous looking at the pellicle a few times. I decided to not touch it and let it ride. Glad that I did.
     
    #22 JrGtr, Oct 1, 2013
  3. JrGtr

    JrGtr Pooh-Bah (1,775) Apr 13, 2006 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    see above
     
    #23 JrGtr, Oct 1, 2013
  4. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    dudes and dudettes,

    i made my clone back in the beginning of august. can't post my recipe, since my laptop's in the shop. it wasn't like Wallows' recipe.
    anyways, used an abbey yeast to ferment in primary, then racked to secondary with Supplication dregs (3 bottles) and dregs from Still nachte Reserva. pellicle formed within days. we're at month 2 of secondary. in 1 month, i'll move the 4.5 (approx) gallons to a bucket, where i'll put 1 ounce of oak cubes that have been soaking in cab. for the past month. debating about how much cherry i should add. thinking a pound per gallon, but RR's beer don't taste overwhelmingly fruity, so will likely dial it down to 0.5 lbs/gallon.
    will let it ferment for up to a year.
     
    #24 atomeyes, Oct 1, 2013
  5. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    I did a Supplication clone that came out in the correct ballpark . . . hard to get close to Vinnie's without blending. This recipe (evidently) came from Vinnie . . .

    75% 2-row
    15% Vienna
    9% C-40
    1% Carafa III for color (I used about an ounce and a half)
    Mash high (158ish), OG 1.064

    Mt. Hood at 60 mins for IBUs in the low 20s

    Ferment with WT530, Sour bug mix, many dregs all at primary fermentation (instead of the stagger Vinnie does).

    Primary for 3-4 weeks, then secondary with 2 pounds dried cherries and I used a little oak (0.5 oz French) for > a year. I dumped multiple dregs in over the year . . .
     
    #25 jae, Oct 1, 2013
  6. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    i assume you did 5 gallons.
    i'm also waiting to put the cherries in until the brett's done its thing for 3 months. not sure if there's a reason to my madness, but that's what i tend to do with brett - let them munch the unmunchables to lower gravity, and then add in the fruit.
     
    #26 atomeyes, Oct 2, 2013
  7. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    Yup, 5 gallons.
     
    #27 jae, Oct 2, 2013
  8. SetJon

    SetJon Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2013 New York

    Thanks JrGtr. I didn't treat it, just racked it and added some beer to reduce the headspace. Hopefully the pellicle will come back and all will be well. I've spent years trying to keep the funkiness out of my my beers/ciders and now I've got to let it in.
     
    #28 SetJon, Oct 4, 2013
  9. stealth

    stealth Pooh-Bah (2,023) Dec 16, 2011 Minnesota
    Pooh-Bah

    #29 stealth, Oct 4, 2013
  10. JrGtr

    JrGtr Pooh-Bah (1,775) Apr 13, 2006 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    YEah, it's a little odd doing that isn't it.
    My advice, and that of a lot of others here, is to have dedicated sour gear. Glass carboys can be de-bugged, but soft things like hoses and so forth can't.
    I know some people use different racking canes as well, but I am taking the risk of not. I've bottled a couple batches since messing with my sour and haven't had any problems. It came to washing the canes as quickly as possible after finishing, and soaking them in sanitizer as well.

    Like as not the spot and film (pellicle) will reform, but this time, don't touch it. That actually protects the beer against ready intrustion by air - and you do need some oxygen in there to get the bugs going.
    Sampling once in a while is OK, but as gently as possible, and don't even bother for at least another 6 months.
    Like I said, mine was in for a year before it got where I wanted it to.
     
    #30 JrGtr, Oct 4, 2013
  11. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    alright.
    my approach:

    Ingredients:
    ------------
    Amt Name Type # %/IBU
    9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 69.1 %
    1 lbs 8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 11.5 %
    1 lbs 2.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 3 8.6 %
    1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4 7.7 %
    6.4 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.1 %
    0.80 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 13.1 IBUs
    1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml Yeast 7 -
     
    #31 atomeyes, Oct 5, 2013
  12. walows

    walows Initiate (0) Aug 9, 2008 California

    I bought mine in Oregon, my sister lives in Eugene and they have this market called 'Market of Choice" its like a whole foods. They sell these frozen tart pie cherries that are awesome. They only come around once a year, when they are available, my sister buys pounds of them and ships them overnight to me (expensive) or the cheaper option is she holds them for me and when she flies down here to visit, she checks them in. I don't remember the exact brand of these cherries...

    The Oregon cherries that you found are OK. I actually have a can of those on the counter of my house. I haven't tried them yet. I am afraid of using canned fruit in water because sometimes they add sugar and cherries are hard to use because they can give your sour beer a medicinal cough syrup flavor. I presonally would add sweet cherry puree over the canned pie cherries. However, sweet cherries are way different then the tart pie cherries.

    It is hard to find the tart pie cherries online for me, but I have been lucky with finding them at speciality markets. I found actual frozen Schaerbeekse cherries in a European Speciality Market. There was no english writing on the package, the only word I could understand was Schaerbeekse. I bought all they had, which was like 20 pounds.

    Keep on hunting.... My best advice is to always try the cherries first before you add. If the cherries taste kinda "fake," I don't recommend using them...
     
    #32 walows, Oct 10, 2013
  13. walows

    walows Initiate (0) Aug 9, 2008 California

    Also, There seems to some dialogue as to the process of making sours.

    I have a few sours under my belt now and am pretty consistent at making them. I have 60 gallons of sour beer fermenting right now in 5gal carboys or 10 gallon fermentors. My advice from what I've learned is two things. Don't mess with it, as in leave it alone and just forget about it and second make sure the airlock is always full.

    I like to make the beer and immediately pitch Belgian Sour Mix 1 from White Labs and Roselair Blend from Wyeast. Then be patient, wait like 6-8 months before trying it. Also, white spots are normal, a thin white layer is normal. It is just a pelical forming. I have noticed that my sours turn out better if the pelical stays thinner. If the air lock drys out, the pelical gets thicker. Which is expected because the wild yeast and bacteria form the pelical to protect themselves from O2. Not saying a thick pelical is bad, but making sure you have as little O2 exposure is best. I also like to add bottle dregs, but beware, most sours are bottle conditioned with wine yeast of some kind. I don't recommend trying to sour a beer solely on dregs. Dregs add to the beer and help with complexity and acidity to the belgian sour mix and roselair but don't really work on there own. I like to wait like 4-8 months before adding dregs.

    Add if you think that making a starter with dregs will work... It won't. First of all you are probably just propagating the wine yeast used to bottle condition. If there wasn't a wine yeast used, they you will grow all the wrong yeast and bacteria in different levels then found in the beer and when you add them to your homebrewed beer, the ratios and levels will all be out of line and weird and then you will make a weird tasting sour. Trust me, I done it all ways.

    I pretty much never rack my sours. I add the fruit to the primary, I recommend leaving some head space. If your shooting for 3-4 pounds of fruit per gallon, you might not be able to fit it all in at once. Wait a couple of weeks and some space will form and add the rest. I have added fresh fruit, frozen fruit, puree and canned. I like to use whole frozen fruit. I mostly use the frozen fruit from Trader Joes.

    I also don't bother with adding oak cubes to any of my sours. Sours aren't really suppose to have any oak character. I have never added oak to my sours and I get comments all the time about the nice levels of oak in my beer..... Really frustrating. So I say don't bother... People like to perceive oak character in my beers because traditionally they are fermented in oak, so people think they taste oak. And plus many domestic sours do have oak character, so again people like to think there is oak character....
     
    #33 walows, Oct 10, 2013
    boogercrack and barfdiggs like this.
  14. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)


    taste those cherries first.
    i may be wrong, but i believe that those end up giving krieks a more medicinal type of flavour akin to cough syrup.
     
    #34 atomeyes, Oct 11, 2013
  15. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California


    Are any of these "sours under your belt" being brewed at Smog City now that you're onboard? Been meaning to make the trip out there.
     
    #35 barfdiggs, Oct 11, 2013
  16. walows

    walows Initiate (0) Aug 9, 2008 California

    Soon, Porter has big plans to get a sour beer program going at Smog City. Hopefully I can help out and make some kick ass sours for Smog City!
     
    #36 walows, Oct 11, 2013
  17. SetJon

    SetJon Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2013 New York

    When you add cherries do you pit them first or add with pits? I've got 10lbs of sour cherries in my freezer with pits in them that I want to add to the consecration clone soon.
     
    #37 SetJon, Nov 12, 2013
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