Sweet Pastry Stouts

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by CBOLAND17, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. CBOLAND17

    CBOLAND17 Initiate (141) Sep 19, 2010 Pennsylvania

    I’m looking to brew a big thick sweet pastry Stout.

    Probably around 12%abv.

    Looking for help with the malt bill as well as mash temp/length and boil.

    Should I make two high temp mash’s and combine them in the boil?
    When/how should I add dark grains to avoid astringency?
    How should I get the sweetness up?

    Thanks all!
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I don't know why you'd want to do that, unless your mash vessel isn't big enough.

    Keep your mash pH and your pH during the sparge under control, and avoid high temperatures, and you'll avoid astringency.

    - High-ish mash temps
    - Short-ish mash length
    - Lots of Crystal Malts
    - Lactose in the boil
    - Low attenuating yeast strain
    - Back Sweeten in Keg
     
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  3. CBOLAND17

    CBOLAND17 Initiate (141) Sep 19, 2010 Pennsylvania

    Well my mash tun is a 10 gallon cooler. I figured in order to make this happen I’ll need to use like 25 pounds of grain which probably won’t fit in there which is why I thought maybe to do separate mash’s.

    Any other grains you recommend? And in terms of crystal malt which ones have you used and what percent?
     
  4. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (196) Jan 18, 2009 New York

  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    What do you want the beer to taste like?
     
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  6. CBOLAND17

    CBOLAND17 Initiate (141) Sep 19, 2010 Pennsylvania

    I’d like it to be along the lines of a Dark Lord and probably not as sweet as Angry Chair. Sweet yet smooth and velvety with roasty undertones and a thick body.
     
  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,762) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    In addition to @mindbender 's Experimental Brewing suggestion, there is an episode of that podcast that talks about double mashing, or reiterated mashing. Also a Brew Strong podcast where it was discussed, and a reference to it in Radical Brewing. Anyhow, it's a technique that might help you overcome volume limits of your mash tun. Basically goes something like this. Mash like normal, drain your wort to a kettle, maintain heat of wort at mash temp, exchange the spent grain in your mash tun for fresh grain, and mash again with the wort from the first mash. The second mash helps concentrate sugars, boosting your gravity. You'll need to figure out the details, but it points you in a direction if you want to take it. There may be residual sugar in the second grain bed that you could even do something parti-gyle-like. Conceptually, I love the idea of coupling these two techniques, and the endless variations for making two beers at once, but it would be a crazy-long brew day, too intimidating for me to try, thus far. Plus, every time I brew a strong beer I wish I had less of it.. So I drink more to have less. Not a good strategy.
     
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  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

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  9. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (886) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Have you ever made a beer like this before? Are you aware of the recipes section?

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/forums/homebrew-recipes.67/?prefix_id=18

    Why wouldn't you be able to fit 25 lbs. of grain in a 10 gallon mash tun? You should be able to fit right around 28 lbs at a 1:1 water to grain ratio.

    So . . . I'd try something like the following. Remember that you're going to get lower efficiency with such a big beer so sparge slowly, collect a couple gallons more than you normally would, and boil longer.

    20 lbs Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
    2 lbs Carafa III
    1 lbs 2-Row Chocolate Malt
    1 lbs Crystal 120
    1 lbs Crystal 60

    This will give you good color and some malt sweetness without the roastiness of roasted barley

    1 oz Magnum (Whole, 14.50 %AA) boiled 90 min

    Nice clean bitterness from Magnum

    Yeast : White Labs WLP004 Irish Stout

    You want a good ester profile without huge attenuation

    Original Gravity 1.125
    Terminal Gravity 1.029
    Color 45.40 °SRM
    Bitterness 54.8 IBU
    Alcohol (%volume) 12.8 %

    If you add some lactose to this, you'll end up with a higher terminal, which is probably what you want.

    This'll get you a pretty solid base beer. I'd drink it, as is, but feel free to add as many silly spices as you want. :wink:
     
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  10. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (254) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I personally would do:
    16-20lb 2 row (gravity you want)
    1lb of roasted barley
    1lb Crystal 120
    1lb Crystal 80
    1lb light chocolate malt
    2lbs flaked oats

    Mash at 155-158 (doesn’t matter)

    I prefer the acridness of roasted barley in my stouts compared to carafa
     
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  11. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (254) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I also add a pound of lactose at end of boil. I forgot this part.
     
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  12. Brewday

    Brewday Initiate (121) Dec 25, 2015 New York

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  13. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Disciple (398) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    I'd copy @Prep8611 except I'd sub his crystal with 1 lb L60 and 1 lb dark Munich. Also use dark chocolate.

    Not a fan of magnum so I'd go with ekg and fuggles.

    also to get more velvety I'd add 1 lb of sweet potato.

    Had a hipster sweet potato stout at gabf a couple years back and it was super.
     
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  14. CBOLAND17

    CBOLAND17 Initiate (141) Sep 19, 2010 Pennsylvania

    Thanks everyone. Any yeast recommendations for this beer?
     
  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (886) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    White Labs WLP004 Irish Stout
     
  16. spersichilli

    spersichilli Initiate (54) Apr 26, 2018 Florida
    Trader

    My recipe i'm brewing tomorrow:
    2 Row 52.00%
    Munich 10L 10%
    Flaked Oats 10%
    White Wheat 10%
    Chocolate Malt 6%
    Crystal 40L 5%
    Brown Sugar 3.5%
    Lactose 3.5%

    Developed it as a combo of some recipes I saw. Did a good amount of research. Aiming for an OG of 1.130 and an FG of 1.040ish. Based on Trillium/Angry Chair/J Wake
     
  17. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (886) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    What's your SRM on this? Looks more like a brown robust porter than an imperial sweet stout, to me.
     
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  18. spersichilli

    spersichilli Initiate (54) Apr 26, 2018 Florida
    Trader

    52 I think. Looks like I left off the black malt off of that lol. Ended up cutting the wheat and brown sugar too
     
    #18 spersichilli, Nov 14, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  19. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (254) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Ya you need something more than chocolate malt to get the color and roastiness you are looking for.
     
  20. jcmmvp

    jcmmvp Initiate (16) Feb 24, 2017 Sweden

    Casting in cents for my big boy. Using lots and lots of malt tho, 19,9kg (44,9lbs) might be unnecessary but ye, I could.

    53,3% Pale 2-Row
    10% Munich
    8% Chocolate - Crisp
    7,5% Flaked Barley
    7,5% Caramel 60L - Briess
    5,5% Caramel 120L - Briess
    5% Roasted Barley - Crisp
    3% Special B - Castle

    IBU a tad high - 60~
    Flaked Barley might be useless so I might remove this but want to imagine that the proteins add some smoothness.
    First runnings were around 1.095 (no sparge) and boiled so I hit 1.160, that's about 6h from 30L to 18L, will boil 5h next time or until I hit 1.150.
    The FG is now 1.060 and kegged for further additions.
    Yeast was us05
     
  21. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    ?
     
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  22. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (106) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    I interpreted it as “just my 2 cents....here’s the big beer I brewed".
     
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  23. jcmmvp

    jcmmvp Initiate (16) Feb 24, 2017 Sweden

    indeed.
     
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  24. spersichilli

    spersichilli Initiate (54) Apr 26, 2018 Florida
    Trader

    Here's the edited recipe i'm actually brewing
    60% 2 row
    12% Flaked Oats
    10% Munich 10L
    6% Crystal 40
    6% Chocolate
    2% Black Patent
    4% Lactose

    1.140 OG, 4-6 hour boil. SRM 55.1
     
  25. jcruz_

    jcruz_ Initiate (30) Dec 3, 2015 Guam

    I recently brewed an imperial (pastry) stout that I double mashed as @pweis909 outlined. My advice would be to make sure you use some rice hulls in your second mash as the wort will be pretty thick. Luckily I BIAB so I didn’t have a “stuck mash” exactly, but it did take some squeezing of the bag to drain half the wort. I mainly went that route so my efficiency wouldn’t suffer as much for the amount of grains I used and because I was going for a thicker mouth feel. Used Voss Kviek and went from 1.119 to 1.045. I don’t have the grain bill on hand but I know there was something like ~15% crystal malt and ~5-6% roasted.
     
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  26. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Usually I respect what you have to say, but these two steps won't give you a sweet beer.
     
  27. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

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  28. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    High mash temps and short mash lengths both result in a less fermentable wort. It's less fermentable because there are less simple/shorter sugars and more complex/longer sugars/dextrins (Maltotriose and longer). Almost all beer yeast strains do not use all of the Maltotriose present in wort. Maltotriose is about 30% as sweet as table sugar. Thus, all other things being equal, high mash temps and short mash lengths make a sweeter beer.

    Now, will those two things alone make a pastry-stout-level-sweet beer? Definitely not, but they can contribute. There are obviously other, more powerful contributors, which I listed in my post.
     
  29. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Except that the starches don't start out sweet at all, and the ones that are partially converted are still not what we would call sweet. Lower attenuating strains will leave a sweeter beer, mashing high will net a buttload of body though.
     
  30. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Maltotriose is not a starch (though you could think of it as a "partially converted" starch). It's a sugar. And more maltotriose in the wort leads to sweeter beer.

    You're right about lower attenuation strains leaving a sweeter beer. And it's for exactly the same reason that more maltotriose in the wort leaves a sweeter beer. In both cases, there's more residual maltotriose in the finished beer.
     
    #30 VikeMan, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  31. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Assuming those complex carbs got broken down to maltriose in the first place.
    Edit... while researching the composition of barley starches and carbohydrates I find it interesting that maltriose isnt found in barley to begin with.
     
    #31 SFACRKnight, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  32. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Every beer wort has maltotriose in it (probably about 20% of the carbs on average). High mash temps and short mash lengths result in higher proportions of maltotriose and lower proportions of simple 100% fermentable sugars. If you have a beer "wort" without maltotriose, you have a failed mash.

    Correct. Barley has fairly negligible amounts of sugars in general. For practical purposes, it all starts with starches.

    ETA: You do believe (correctly I might add) that lower attenuating yeast strains result in sweeter beer. Why do you think that is? i.e. what's the thing that lower attenuating strains are leaving behind that higher attenuation strains are not?
     
  33. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    My argument is based on the idea that high mash temps do not inherently leave higher amounts of sweet sugars. I would like to see where you are getting data supporting sugar content in worts based off mash temps.
     
  34. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I'm not saying that high mash temps create more (very) sweet sugars. Just the opposite. I'm saying that they create more of the sweet-ish sugar Maltotriose.

    My logic is that high mash temps favor Alpha Amylase over Beta Amalyse. Alpha Amylase breaks down long chain carbs, producing Maltotriose. Beta Amalyase, which is not favored at high temps, produces little maltotriose. I don't have numbers. Just a few facts, applied logic, and subjective experience.

    To summarize, I'm saying that high temps produce the following (as compared to low temps)…
    Glucose+ Fructose + Sucrose + Maltose: Less
    Maltotriose: More
    Longer chains: More (or no change)

    If I understand your argument, you are saying that high temps produce the following (as compared to low temps)...

    Glucose+ Fructose + Sucrose + Maltose: Less
    Maltotriose: No change
    Longer chains: More

    Is that what you're thinking? If so, do you have data, or if not, what do you base it on (i.e. what logic)? If that's not what you're thinking, could you please lay it out?

    Either of these scenarios would be consistent with lower fermentability. But only one is consistent with higher mash temps favoring Maltotriose production.
     
    #34 VikeMan, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  35. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,475) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    ^^^ Too late to edit, so adding here:
    I'm not trying to get into a peeing contest about this. I would happily welcome an alternative explanation that fits the facts.

    And Happy Turkey Day to all. I'm off to the couch to wait out the tryptophan coma.
     
    #35 VikeMan, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  36. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    My logic is this based off of personal experience with high mash temps. My high mash temp stouts (read 160) are no sweeter than my low mash temp stouts (read 150) . Yes, there are more polysaccharides in the high temp mash wort than the lower, however there is more alcohol in the lower mash wort with all things being equal. Alcohol adds percieved sweetness while polysaccharides are perceptibly less sweet. It all comes out in the wash netting a beer that has more body and equal sweetness if you mash high.
     
  37. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (886) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Well . . . you got me since then, so you've got that going for you. :wink:
     
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  38. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Also, no posting contest at all. Totally civil discussion, both sides have validity.
     
  39. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,762) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Seems like a lot of peeps are saying Irish ale yeast, which certainly has a history with stouts. I will suggest that Lallemand's ESB yeast might work well too. I've only use it 1x, in an old ale. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I got about 70% attenuation, maybe 8.5% ABV with some simple sugar in the recipe, and it left the wort sweet. This yeast does not do well with maltotriose, which factors into the low attenuation and sweetness. According to Lallemand, it tolerates up to 12%. I selected it for my old ale based on its low attenuation. I wanted to add brett to secondary and give it a lot to chew on. Before adding the brett, it was very sweet, probably would have been a nice matrix for a dessert beer.
     
  40. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,262) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    I've had luck using the Irish ale copitched with 1056 in a 4l starter to get those huge og beers down a bit further. I will say that without temp control Irish ale throws all sorts of esters.
     
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