The made it myself effect.

Lower pHs definitely help separate flavor compounds and add crispness to beer. I usually mash a bit higher for a stout or something like that where I want the flavors more integrated. Mash pH too high? Muddy piece of shit.

 

Koopa, I was going to say that but I couldn't come up with the word precursor. I typed out predecessor and thought, that's not quite right, and deleted it, figuring that someone would wordsmith it for me in a follow-up post.

Both of you: Do you think that what you are tasting has to do with a chemical reaction controlled by the pH during the mash, or do you think what you are tasting has to do with a chemical reaction in your mouth due to the final pH? Or something else. I honestly don't know the answer on this one.

Instructions for adjusting mash pH are aimed at enzymatic optimization for conversion. Fermentation has an effect on the final pH, but I never really read about people making pH adjustments after fermentation. It just seems strange that we would control it at one stage (the mash) but ignore it later, after the fermentation. Do we expect the yeast to consistently deliver the perfect pH, given the potential for variability due to oxygen levels, pitch rates, fermentation temps, etc? Sorry if I came across as being nitpicky; it's just that I sometimes geek out on chemistry (more like a thought experiment since I don't own a pH meter) and pH beyond the mash doesn't seem to get addressed much.

 

BILF... if it is any consolation at all, I am exactly like you. I brew more than I can drink. While I love great beer, I really love to brew probably even more. I currently have no less than 10 cases of beer and cider on hand. Some is commercial, most is homebrewed. My problem also is that if it isn't absolutely fantastic like it would score in the 40s, then it sits... and sits... and sits on the shelf. Occasionally though I do make a 40-point beer and then the beer is magically gone in a few weeks. Also I'm not a heavy drinker. I'll have one bottle, two or three times per week. Maybe once a month I'll have an actual session where I drink three or four at one time with friends.

Some things I've done to cope, in no particular order:

1) Brew smaller batches. Now I don't make 5 gallons or even 2.5 or 3 gallons at a time anymore. I make 1/3-size batches = 5/3 = 1.67-gallon batches. Then I get "enough" beer to enjoy without it disappearing too fast. I can also run a lot more experiments and not feel so bad if I need to dump one. The list of advantages goes on and on.

2) Stop buying so much friggin commercial stuff. There are times I cannot resist, but other times I can. When possible, do so.

3) Enter lots of competitions. Yes, this is always a good idea. And don't just trust one or two judges' opinions. Enter each batch into at least THREE different comps. Then you'll have a truly unbiased non-consensus opinion, which is exactly what you need. Just like homebrewers, some judges suck. You'll know it when you see it. Throw bad scoresheets in the garbage as if they'd never happened. That's why you really need at least 6 or 8 scoresheets to really know how good or bad your beer is.

4) Become a BJCP judge yourself. Of course.

5) Read a lot. I hang out a lot on homebrewing forums and have done so for almost 15 years. The old proverb goes, "One learns most when teaching others." How true.

6) Run a lot of experiments on your own and collect lots of data. Don't take others' advice unless you have grains of salt to go with it. Understand your process to a T, including what different mash temps and times do, and different yeast strains, etc.

7) Join a club of like-minded fools. Once you get deep into the club thing and trust one another enough, people will tell you flat out if your beer really sucks or if it is really awesome... and they'll REALLY mean it when they say it! Unlike casual friends who always try to be nice even if it's bad.

8) Give beer away to charity events. Then you can brew more, and if it's good you'll be thanked and if it's bad you won't need to drink it! It will allow me to get rid of 2.5 cases out of those 10 cases I mentioned earlier. Woo hoo!

Each of the above have been crucial steps to my own development and struggles. You might agree with some of them. Cheers to you, sir.

 

I'd posit the flavor is more of a reaction in the mouth due to final pH. I do know that, similarly, the sweetness of a beer is often a perception occurring in your mouth, since your mouth also has amalyse enzymes in it. This is why beers start tasting drier towards the tail end of a lengthy drinking session at home or at the bar. The amalyses in your mouth eventually get diluted / swallowed / can't replenish fast enough to keep up!

Yes mash pH control is usually most talked about with conversion / extraction in mind, but it is a precursor to final pH and some brewers will sacrifice a few "points" to achieve the best flavor for the particular beer being made by opting for a mash pH that sets them up for the best tasting final beer pH. As you so aptly point out though, there are other variables that also need to be controlled perfectly.

 

I think our palates get more and more hard to please, it seems we get accostumed to our homebrewed beers taste so we need to find something different,more sophisticated wich is not so easy to find .

 

I am also super critical of things I produce. Not saying I don't still enjoy the end product when it's not perfect, but I make note on what could have done better.

I really enjoy putting a lot of work into something (beer, food, hell even work) and knowing the end result came out great. I enjoy the process of brewing and cooking, but I love when it comes out just right and it's time to enjoy as well.

 

Those that play with cider and mead know that adding some acid can make a flabby beverage more drinkable.

I have played a little with finished beer by adding acid or lime. It makes a difference. I think Gordon Strong said a little about adjusting pH post fermentation in his book.

 

Cider makers usually use malic acid right? Yes Gordon did mention post fermentation pH adjustments in his book using phosphoric acid. Also on some forums..

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=7354.0

gordonstrong

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Re: Post-ferment pH adjustment
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2011, 11:51:59 AM »

"I did some research and experimentation with this last summer while working on my book. I think the desired target range is 4.1 to 4.5, with the tradeoff being between flavor and stability. The higher the pH, the better the flavor. The lower the pH, the better the (microbial) stability. Above 4.5, you start to get into food safety issues (i.e., stuff can grow in it). Lowering the pH does make the beer seem thinner, and eventually starts getting tart. I only used phosphoric acid (it's an ingredient in soft drinks as a flavor enhancer).

When the pH of beer is above 4.6 or so, it does have a bland taste, sort of like underseasoned (undersalted) food. Adding phosphoric acid did improve the flavor, to a point. Like salting food, there is an optimal point and it's somewhat subjective. Going too far means you start tasting the flavor enhancer and not the enhanced flavor. The flavor impact was different based on the serving temperature as well. Measuring at room temperature and then tasting at the colder serving temperature can result in over-adjusted beer. The desired final pH is also affected by the flavor profile (beer style) of the subject beer; there isn't one magic pH where all beers taste best.

I did find that finished beer did buffer pH change quite a bit. Certainly more so than RO water. Another way of illustrating that adding acids to adjust pH is not something with an easy linear formula. You have to add and test carefully, at least until you've neutralized the buffer and start moving the pH."

 

I love cider, I've got 5 batches ready to bottle right now... but this thread is derailed. Just sayin'.

 

Absolutely; the OP is suffering from a drinking problem (too little) and chemistry lessons aren't gonna make him better . For @BILF , I made a better'n average dent in my stash last night . . . you know, as a vote of solidarity. Havin' a formal sit-down tasting tomorrow . . . who's in with me to help a fellow BA'er?