The Problem with American Craft

?

 

Examples please. BM them if you don't want to name them in public.

 

“It's insanely hoppy compared to traditional pils.” Oh boy, there is that word “traditional” which can have a number of meanings.

Would you consider a German Pilsner that was brewed in the 1970s – 1980s to be “traditional”?

Cheers!

 

*Sigh*

Prima Pils, which, like Lashes, has IBUs in the 50s is, according to the people who brew it, hoppier than anything they ever tasted in Germany throughout their travels spanning the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. Why you insist on perpetuating this myth about German beers is far, far beyond me. Especially given that you yourself have never experienced any of these beers in Germany during any of those decades.

 

The lock-down quality control/consistency of product by Bud/Miller/Coors is astounding. It may taste like piss, but it's pretty damn impressive that the piss you taste in Seattle is gonna be the same piss you taste in Miami. And anyone who has ever tried brewing at any level cannot just dismiss the science that has been mastered by the big boys.

Also, anyone who enjoys the current Stone offerings can somewhat thank Bud for that too.

Head brewer Mitch Steele has long credited his days working for Budweiser as what has helped him learn how to brew such large volume at a consistent level.

 

I have no problem naming names. Not all local, but Pales and IPAs sold in MA. Terrible: BackYahd (you think this is ok which I find concerning),Cody IPA, The Narragansett attempts at DIPAs, Blue Hills IPA and DIPA, Monkeyfist, Porkslap Pale, DOA IPA, Opa-Opa A10 Warthog, Slumbrew Metal Coil (and I'm admittedly in the minority who thinks Flagraiser is not good.) Bad: SoMe IPA, Navigation Pale and IPA, Newburyport Pale, Tuckerman Pale, Bitter Rival, Endless IPA, White hawk IPA...I can keep going.

I'm not one to go even a little ga-ga at any presence of hops. The rating system here says I'm in the minority.

 

Hop breeding programs gave us the hops we have now, not genetic engineering.

 

I have zero idea why you feel compelled to state:

· “Why you insist on perpetuating this myth about German beers is far, far beyond me.”

· “Especially given that you yourself have never experienced any of these beers in Germany during any of those decades.”

It is indeed true that I did not drink German Pilsners in the 1970s – 1980s but that doesn’t change the facts.

I have detailed information from Dirk Lachenmeier that documents German Pilsner IBUs of the 1980’s and beyond. For example:

· A German Pilsner of 1987 had 62.1 IBUs

· A German Pilsner of 1999 had 57.6 IBUs

I strongly suspect that the German Pilsners of the 1970s would have had similar (and maybe even higher?) values.

It is indeed you that are perpetuating myths.

 

This is way off topic, but the pilsners you reference -- 2 out of literally 1000s -- are Waldhaus and Vogel. There are no other breweries from that decade on the list with IBU levels anywhere near that high. Moreover, the brewers at Victory have stated explicitly right on here on BA that Prima is hoppier than both of those. I doubt this fact will do anything to change your mind, but I don't want others mislead.

EDIT: How would you like it if someone went around proclaiming that U.S IPAs from the 2000s-2010s are in the 20 IBU range just because they found 2 examples that fit those numbers on a list somewhere? It's completely misleading, and although I'd be happy to put this to rest forever, I will continue to call you on it anytime you put this myth out there.

 

I don't argue with anything you say. This certainly isn't the first or last time we've had discussions like this too, so I'm not picking on you personally, even though I probably sounded like a dick. I know you started this thread with the best intentions and have made thoughtful responses throughout and I appreciate that... I wish more members were like you, honestly. I just read that exchange about judging quality and it struck a chord with me. Mostly because when individuals taste/rate/judge beers and breweries [or any product really] they are not a clean slate; we unwittingly carry a lot of personal "baggage" affecting that judgment, positively or negatively, and part of that baggage is these discussions. The only place I will disagree with you is that it does have some effect on the larger market beyond BA... As members here assign number scores and rankings to beers/breweries and discuss them at length it can feed back into people's "baggage" affecting their tastes/opinions, and more importantly the beers they choose to buy or don't buy, it can have real financial effects on brewers. It's the reason that many professional brewers do keep half an eye on this site. They know better than to wade into messy threads like this, but they are involved in the site in other ways in part to keep their brand out ahead of the ratings/talk/buzz, to keep it from turning into a downward spiral of negativity, and/or promote positive upward spirals.

 

You did nail a virtual who's who of poor IPAs, minus Flagraiser, which I think is quite good. Blue Hills is simply awful, as in, drain pour badly made. I find BackYahd ok, but don't buy it. Admittedly, my consumption of it has come solely at Pawsox games, where it is likely very fresh. It may alter my experience. Never heard of some of these on your list.

So yes, they exist, but I don't see them anymore. Monkeyfist is hard to find. Opa Opa, only in growlers. Cody is out of business. I haven't seen White Hawk on a shelf in years. Newburyport is the only one on your list that I see on shelves, and it is the best of them. I find the APA ok, the IPA is not good. So quality is winning not losing, which is what I've been saying. Insead of White Hawk, I now have Hoponious Union. Instead of Monkeyfist, I have Little Sumpin' Sumpin'. Instead of Opa Opa I have Be Hoppy. Life is grand. As with your comment on Flagraiser, I think I'm in the minority in disliking Smuttynose Finest Kind. I wouldn't call it badly made though, just not a style of IPA I like.

 

Of course. I did not intend to suggest that they were GMOs. It is still genetics at work through breeding, whether hops, corn or chickens. Turkeys bred for food can no longer mate, the male "pecs" are too large to let them get close enough. The fondness for "white meat" has done no favors for those birds.

 

I tend to agree with you for the most part. I think supporting great beer is the way to go. If a local brewery makes crap beer, I won't buy it. BUT, if all things are equal, I'll certainly support local great beer over a beer that's been shipped in. The great thing is that now - finally - after living in the dark ages of big beer for many years, we have a choice. I think the state of American craft is pretty solid!

 

“Moreover, the brewers at Victory have stated explicitly right on here on BA that Prima is hoppier than both of those. I doubt this fact will do anything to change your mind, but I don't want others mislead.”

The two head brewers of Victory (Bill Covaleski and Ron Barchet) have not posted on BA concerning the hop level of Prima Pils. So what you claim as fact is not fact.

It has been posted on BA that Victory Prima Pils is above 50 IBUs with a value of 52 IBUs made mention. I have testing data on two German Pilsners that exceed this value. I do not doubt if I had IBU values for German Pilsners of the 1970s there would be more examples then just these two.

Since there seems to be difficulties on your part with respect to facts, let me help you out here.

I know of two German brewed Pilsners who have tested at IBU levels higher than what has been posted for Prima Pils:

· It is a fact that German breweries have produced hoppy Pilsners; hop values (IBUs) greater than Victory Prima Pils.

I will continue to remind you of the facts as you post your opinions.

Cheers!

 

You are absolutely correct, Jack. It was Jim Busch, who traveled with the brewer and who works with/for Victory who in fact clearly stated that Prima is hoppier than the two examples you point to.

 

Jim is a knowledgeable guy but he is not an employee of Victory Brewing; he does not commercially brew there.

Cheers!

 

Here! here. This sums it up perfectly!

 

I think it is a wonderful thing that we can have this chat! It was not all that long ago when one's choices were limited to the BMCs and porly handled German imports. Revel in the options, but make critical choices.

 

One side benefit of the renewed interest in quality beer is that the import section has also vastly improved (around here, at least), so here's to the rising tide. Cheers!

 

Couple of years ago I had to spend a couple of weeks in Brussels working on a project. Did some homework in advance so I could also find Belgian beers I'd not be able to find around here. Had a very hard time doing so and a few I thought were only available there were just some I'd not noticed so I had a rough time finding good Belgian beers not available to us here.