thoughts on $4$ trades

They also probably won't trade for $100 of White Rajah.

 

Agree to disagree. It seems like we see eye-to-eye on the crux of the issue, but the solution seems to be making it clear in your FT:ISO posting. I picked up 9 KBS and a buddy of mine did the same and took a slight amount of work. I would not put FT:ISO without stipulating ratios. The ratios, however, would most likely be $4$ assuming I'm looking for a beer of similar "rarity" (SMS, BCBS). I would not expect to pick up your bomber of Nuthulu with 7-8 bottles of KBS unless you were a KBS nut.

 

It all just depends on the trade, if I'm doing a bulk trade for a rarer bottle or two I generally ask if they wouldn't throwing in some solid locals so I'm not sending $100 of beer for a $20-$30 bottle, doesn't have to be exact or even close at that point, just not to make it super lop sided.

If I'm trading bottle for bottle I don't care if I have more $ into the trade because the trade is still fair based of what the beers are trading for. If I feel I'm short on the $ for a bottle to bottle trade I include solid extras to make up for it. I always send solid extras any way because that is the generous thing to do regardless if I have way more money into it any way.

Whales will only trade for other whales or bulk trades, that's just the way it works. The people trading whales for bulk trades should be generous and offer solid local extras at the least.

I'm hearing all these bulk trades happening where the bulk sender sends a ton of money in beer and the guy sending the whale just sends the one bottle... Greed is what is starting to rule the trade forums.

I don't think it is wrong to ask for a $4$ trade by any means, the person is just wanting to make sure they are getting a similar amount invested on the other side. People just need to stop being so exact with their $4$ trades.

 

Your position on your time, gas costs and anything else to be added in to the trade is not going to fly with most people. That is just the cost of doing business.

If someone is trading many bottles for a few bottles, a good trader will throw in some extra beer in the trade to make up for the unbalanced shipping costs, that is just common decency.

If you are looking to make a balance sheet of all costs associated with a trade when making a trade, you are doing it wrong.

 

How you got the beer or what you had to do to get the beer is and should always be irrelevant to the cost. This is why $4$ deals are getting out of hand. What you paid for the beer at the store is the $ invested period. Travel cost, time, and what ever else should never add up to $4$ in a trade.

 

why even read this thread then?

 

Shipping cost should never be looked at in $4$ either. That is the cost you are taking to make the trade happen.

$4$ should only be looked at as what either person trading spent on beer and beer alone. Forget everything else.

 

I trade quite often bombers/750s on my end for cases of shelfish beers like Central Waters.
$4$ always with me throwing in an extra agreed upon bottle and me shipping first with a 24 bottle shipper for them to return.

 

I am learning that you really need to have an item that someone wants and you really need to know what you want back in return. Than you don't spend so much time back in forth and frustrated that you can not work something out. I had a bottle of Rare Barrel Ensorcelled that I wanted to trade but had no idea on what kind of bottle I could get in return and an offer of a solid 18th street brewery beer did not seem like enough and asking for two bottles made it seem as I were greedy. But if somebody offered me a Huna for it I would be jumping up and down with delight despite the dollar amount would not match up. In other cases I have traded Pliny just for someones local IPAs and let them pick what they wanted to send as I only was looking to try new things and we traded 3 bottles for 3 bottles. I guess the only thing that works is if both parties are happy with the trade whether its $4$ of both sides end up with beer that want and price is not part of the equation.

 

It's really about setting expectations. I have found that the best way to approach a trade is have a list of what you are ISO. That way, you don't have to go through the process of someone just offering whatever they want with no consideration for what you expect to receive. If you desire a Huna or other similar brews for your RBE, then starting with that list sets the expectations for your potential trade partner. They may not have anything on your ISO list, but they may have similar brews you had never even thought of that satisfy your wants.

 

Ill say I don't think it's ridiculous to start with but it's ridiculous to use as a primary benchmark because a trade forum is essentially a market where "value" is determined by much more than an initial price. At any given time the value of a good can fluctuate, and even more specific a value can fluctuate when price does not. For example, lets say BCBS costs $7 for a 12oz bottle one year. A year later that beer still has the same monetary worth, but because it is no longer available on shelves and has been cellared for a year, it arguably has more value. This beer should no longer be traded $4$ unless it is going for a beer that was similarly hard to find, is no longer available, and was aged for the same amount of time. So what I think of when I consider this is that many people on the forum have a good perception of what value is. This is the exact reason people often post in others threads saying something like "this will or won't get done" without saying that it won't get done because of monetary value, but because we have developed a new type of value that might be called trade value. $4$ works only in special circumstances, but more often than not a more complex version of "value" has been generated based on the emergence of new social relations via a beer trade forum.

 

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. Perhaps I'm overlooking things, but there is a risk in your example that that BCBS was not aged properly. Maybe someone had it in the garage and experienced wild temperature changes. Maybe purely out of ignorance on the trader. Is that BCBS worth as much as BCBS that was cellared in a humidity controlled room at 55 degrees?

On the other side, is a 2015 KBS for a 2014 BCBS ridiculous because the 2014 has more perceived value? The forum may dictate that 2014 BCBS aged properly is better, but perhaps the trader prefers fresh KBS to aged BCBS and wasn't able to get their hands on that beer. That is where the gray lines are, and why, IMO $4$ is never ridiculous assuming general common sense is used. In my town, KBS was marked 10% higher this year than last year. Does the 10% make up for the $4$ in perceived cellaring value? Probably up to the traders.

I think it comes down to making sure FT:ISO is on point rather than "FT: 2014 BCBS ISO: GOOD STOUTS" and then getting annoyed when people make an offer not up to your perceived snuff.

 

I will never understand why this is so confusing to so many traders.

Instead of starting with $4$, ask yourself if the beers being discussed are AT OR NEAR THE SAME "LEVEL." Meaning, bottle count/availability/rarity/etc. If they are, then $4$ is pretty much the way to go. If they're not, then you're gonna have to either way overpay or trade for different beer.

Someone tongue-in-cheek asked above if "Assassin trades for $30 worth of beer." If it's $30 of equally in demand/limited beer, the answer is yes. If it's $30 worth of shelf IPAs, the answer is no. As an example.

 

Not sure if this has been said but I leave shipping out of it. I'm new to the trade scene and I'm only looking for both parties to be happy with the trade. That said, I've had a 20 pound package and a 7 pound package ship for literally a dollars difference. That's exactly why I leave shipping off the table. Just try and share the cool beer we have access to.

 

oh yeah, including s/h costs = LOL. someone else put it best, the "cost of doing business."

filed under the same inane comments like "I had to drive this far," or "I waited in a long line," or "stood in the freezing cold," etc.

#nope

 

I've never even taking shipping into consideration for the beers trades "value" I feel like if people are factoring in shipping, gas, time, etc. nit picking for additional dollars in the trade, then perhaps trading is just not for you (implying one in particular).
This is supposed to be fun....

 

Totally agree^^

 

I only consider shipping costs when the weight is going to be lopsided. If I am shipping 1-2 beers and the other guy is shipping a 50pound box, I make sure to up the extras. I also try and stick with $4$, but I also mainly trade with regular partners.

 

But saying that the effort you took in getting the beer should be factored in is silly. The other guy had to go get the beer he is trading as well.