Tipping

And that is unlikely to change as it is not part of our culture!

A few other thoughts on 'your' London experience

I note that you lived in Westminster, the 2nd most expensive borough to rent in, in London (in one of the worlds most expensive city's to live and rent in!!!)

If you had tried another town in England or even area of London you might have got a larger wage (for lesser rent)

Whilst I realise that your pub accomodation might not have been the best in Westminster - shared facilities etc, the average weekly rent for a 1 bedroom is £493 or £25+K per annum

You paid for your central location through low wages - quite simply!

 

And where does it stop ?????

Why are bar staff so deserved?

Let's tip ...

hospital porters
factory workers
labourers
litter collectors
office juniors
admin staff
full time charity workers
shop workers
tinker
tailor
soldier
spy

etc
etc
etc

 

Looks like I almost missed a humdinger here.

Tipping? It's down to our custom and practice, and, importantly CLASS. Pubs were, historically, the refuge of the working man, the factory worker, the poorly paid. They paid for their beer and that was it, there were no niceties, frills or pomp about the practice, men went there from work to get rid of the nasty taste of the day.
Pubs evolve over time, but essentially the same practices continue. The drinkers do not get tipped in their job so see no reason to tip other people doing a job. And that's what bar work is, it's a job, just like any other and the people doing it get paid, just like everyone else who does a job. Now if the person doing the job is not happy with their remuneration package they have choices to make. Over here we resorted, in the past, to Trade Unions who represented the workers and got them a better deal. More recently Minimum Wage legislation has protected those who are unable to organise. The US has Minimum Wage Legislation, but as I understand it, employers can choose to ignore it if they think workers will be able to rely on the charity of others to boost the wage. That's called exploitation and profiteering, exploitation of the worker and profiteering by cutting staff costs.
Now, radical idea here, if employers paid an adequate wage then the cost of the beer would go up, you would no longer be a charitable donor, you'd pay the same for the beer, the employee would pay tax on ALL of their income, the employer would not be such a scumbag for exploiting workers.

 

Because tipping for no reason or stupid reasons is usually an American thing. In Europe in general you don't tip your bartenders and you don't tip your waiters or cabs either. The owners of the places actually do the responsible thing and pay them good wages with the money you're paying for the food/drinks. You'll usually leave a euro/pound or 2 if you were really satisfied with the service you got and more often, you just leave them the cents that you got as change. There's no reason you should have to help pay for someone's wages on top of the food you're already paying for. This is why they love American tourists in places like this in Europe though. The person won't refuse the tip but they won't tell you you're not supposed to either so they usually get what is to them hugee tips from Americans.

 

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!! This is also something engrained in American culture and why the avg American got a baseball bat shoved up their ass when the recession hit. The Americans are among the only ones living beyond their means. Families in Latin America, Europe, the Middle East, wherever I've been that isn't the USA...people own their shit.

A family's home and cars are theirs and they take a vacation whenever they can afford it with the savings, they don't owe anything to the banks. That is why its kinda hard to get into the American way of things when you move there, because they're asking you for credit to buy things. Why the fuck do I want credit and owe money to banks . All I need is a recession to hit and then for me to lose my job and I'm out on the street with no car to search for jobs with or roof to sleep under.

This is why the recession didn't hit anywhere as bad as the US...the economy can get as bad as it wants but as long as you own your house and car, you can always just downsize. Other cultures are also used to saving up...the avg savings an American has is diddley squat. They can't survive for 6 months on their savings. If you take a look at an avg European vs as an avg American, the European probably has no debt, has money saved up, owns a small home and a decent car and takes summer vacations in another country, while the American is probably up to his neck in debt, owns a huge house and nice car, both of which he can't afford so he owes those to the bank too and doesn't really go anywhere on vacation. Part of it also has to do with that its extremely easy to get credit/loans in the US so everyone uses it.

 

My sister just sold her house in Perth for A$650 000..........complete with family room, pool and masses of space in a duplex plot.Even in Nottingham you couldn't get somewhere like that for 650 000 POUNDS.And what I see my American friends get for their money.........

 

I make it a point to get a different server next time. Its only crappy service that gets no tip from me here.

 

There's a lot more land...Europe pretty much fits in the US. Prices only get similar in cities like NYC, Miami, LA etc.

 

You shouldn't generalise so much matey. Some English people are nice, some complete saints, and some are arseholes (espcially in London, where you get not only the rich city financial worker yuppy arsehole, but also the lives on a council estate and would mug you for the wrong look arsehole). It's just luck really who you end up bumping into whilst you're visiting.

 

Why do you think that bar tenders should be subsidised directly by the customer? What is it about not understanding that it is the employers responsibility to pay staff?

What is happening behind the bar in the UK is that staff are paid to do a job just as the person behind the till at the Supermarket, the guy picking up the rubbish you've just thrown on the floor and the guy driving the bus you've just missed. They get a wage, they don't rely on charity tips.

Paying low wages benefits only those who pay them, that's why they're laughing at you.

 

But that is just the way it is here. 2 out of every 3 new bars/restaurants go out of business here. If owners were required to pay their bartenders/waiters/waitresses a decent wage barely any restaurants could survive. The only other option would be to raise prices across the board, but it is already expensive to take your family out to dinner, any more, and most people wouldn't go out.

 

I know, it is a really ridiculous concept that employers should pay workers a wage they can live on.

 

How you you feel about commission based sales jobs?

 

I think it was reprob8 that alluded to the fix to this above. The price of everything would go up, yes and it should if this were implemented, but is the overall cost of taking the fam out to dinner any different than if you paid a lower amount for food but subsidized your serving staff instead? Probably not. And making this type of arrangement standard policy would tend to stem the spread of tipping expectations into other indistries where it has no business. Overall, costs would stay the same or decline slightly. And we could all live tip-guilt-free.

 

You'd have to cap the price increase to 15%-20% for it to remain the "same" as when tipping was the norm, as that is the average tip here. Which isn't much of an increase and wouldn't really cover the new salary you'd have to pay your workers.

Then, since you've taken away the only motivation for your wait staff to do their job properly, you'd have to deal with poor service and super high turnaround for a few years while the system got working properly.

It would just be a mess.

 

This is a well-rehearsed rant my friend, but it has absolutely nothing to do with beer or beer culture whether in the US, the UK or anywhere else.Not meaning to bust your chops but please stay on point. If I want to hear this stuff I'll listen to talk radio.

 

Sorry, wasn't aware that was being talked about on the radio or news...I don't watch news or listen to the radio. Not being sarcastic.

 

Very true Hanzo. It would be a mess no doubt.
But we come full circle to things from the start of this thread. It would only be a mess because the US system has made it possible for the barstaff to hold the patron over the barrel, in that they can subtly discern who is making an open show of tipping through their session and those patrons get better service. It should have always been the other way around, so the system based on motivation has crashed miserably already.
Incidentally, the staff's motivation to do their job properly should always be...to keep their job.
Also, in figuring the numbers, remember that it would be 15-20% increase of everything sold at every table or stool for any unit of time you choose to calculate. Just shift "tip" to "salary" in your mind. It already covers it.

 

I'm going to get a job as a postman and start burning mail if people don't give me extra money.
I'm going to get a job as a policeman, and arrest people if they don't give me extra money.
I'm going to get a job as a teacher, and teach kids the wrong stuff if their parents don't give me extra money.