Tired Hands (2021)

I'm gonna have a real hard time if they release non-DDH Oblivex soon, tho

 

Trust me I get it! I really was hoping for another grassman with riwaka or Citra ddh EPOB. another reason I should've driven the two hours to OH and filled up on TDH ACE. Really this wasn't well timed for me in that selfish regard! (Also with you on non ddh oblivex being the superior, but that's the exception for me, for whatever reason).

 

I appreciate you continuing to use the "wait and see" quote, though how I wrote it and how you're interpreting it are two very different things.

My interpretation is specifically about these stories that have come out over the weekend. It makes zero sense to me to go from IG stories to a brand new ownership and culture at a brewery in a week. We wait and see if these allegations are founded, and if so massive changes need to be made. And again, this is the same day the employees posted that Jean had left and they are seeking new ownership. These are good things, I hope we agree.

You interpretation seems to be that we (or I) sit on the sidelines and let Jean and the boys continue to do things. That is not what I'm saying at all.

One more time for everyone, that is not what I'm saying at all. What Brienne is doing is long overdue, and will hopefully lead to wholesale changes to the industry.

The TH employees clearly voiced themselves and are clearly looking for a change. I was just curious about the mentality of people thinking that what they've done so far, where they are right now, today, is still not good enough or not the "real change" they wanted.

I literally wrote at the end of my post what my point was. And you still sound unconvinced anything at Tired Hands has changed based on Instagram posts. So again, I ask, what is it you need right now, right this second from them to do right in your eyes?

 

Why are you trying to address the Instagram "mob" from the Beer Advocate forum.

 

I would like for you to find me an example of one person, in any field, that was accused of the exact same type of wrongdoings by dozens of people -- and with alarming specificity -- only for it to be later found out that the person was wholly innocent and it was all just a coordinated smear campaign.

Find me even ONE example.

And then, if you can, do the probability math on that example against the myriad Weinstein/R Kelly/Cosby/etc serial abuser situations where the accused party absolutely did the shit they were accused of.

Do bullshit accusations happen? Absolutely. But by one person against one person. And even those are one splash of water against the entire sea of shitty dudes doing shitty things to women and completely getting away with it. Most such situations are never even brought to light, let alone resultant in any criminal or monetary penalty. That's how we got here in the first place.

"Just wait and see" sounds nice and diplomatic in a vacuum but if you can read this absolute deluge of horror against Jean and think anything but "this is an asshole" I'm sorry, but you're part of the problem.

 

I came around on some of the DDH stuff, including DDH Double Alien Church and DDH Grassman. Even some of the DDH Punge iterations have been fantastic. But it's non-DDH Oblivex for me all the way.

 

There's nothing they (realistically) will do RIGHT NOW to change my opinion. You're right. Why do I have to change my opinion based on so little vs numerous stories which square perfectly in the industry, hobby, and society in general? In real life, if I know someone behaves badly for years and suddenly has a come to Jesus moment supposedly (after getting caught/ in trouble/ etc) why should I feel obligated to congratulate them? You can, I get the logic, but power structures rarely really change. So taking the "I'll believe it when I see it approach" seems reasonable to me. To each their own. But I wouldn't be too sure these small things mean massive ingrained issues at TH and elsewhere are totally going to change without some real pushing from consumers, which inevitably means taking money out of abusers pockets in the long run.

 

Because they're all part of the same mob mentality and those posts are clearly addressed by other posters who I am talking to?

I'll let you go back and re-read my definition of "wait and see" in this particular, specific set of allegations. Jean comes off as an awful person and owner, and now he appears to be paying the price. These are good things.

Or don't. At this point I'm exhausted. I do hope you guys get whatever it is you deem satisfactory, I really do. It's very taxing to be angry online.

 

Cool see you later

 

I know you tried entering this convo in good faith, and it looks like people are very patiently trying to explain their perspective to you. Most notably, @stairway2heavn 's most recent comment. If you're sincerely trying your best to understand, it would be a real shame if you gave up on doing so after such little effort.

I don't think anyone here is expressing extreme emotions by any means, especially given the topic, to where reading these comments would become taxing or exhausting for you.

 

Re: TDH ACE - a) I'm sorry to tell you it's awesome, definitely a return to form. b) while any repetitive themes that arose from the 800+ stories seemed to revolve around Tired Hands, Shaun Hill, "Soren", the entirety of San Diego, and a handful of other people/places in no particular order, there were a couple of stories mentioning an NYC "hype brewery"..... so who knows. I can think of around 1.5 breweries in NYC that qualify as hype.

 

I was specifically reaching out to @stairway2heavn, because he said they have yet to institute real change. And I asked what immediate actions can be done. And you know what, eventually he answered it in a way that made sense to me. There is nothing they can do immediately, right now, right this second.

That is my issue with this and all these other allegations. That's why I mentioned immediate gratification. There's no chance a brewery staff is going to roll into work one day, suddenly find themselves in charge of the social media accounts, throw out the ownership, and satisfactorily undo years of toxicity. Hence, "wait and see".

I'm out now, I promise. You guys can find me in the Hill thread not posting anything. LOL.

 

What's the .5? Presuming OH is the 1 . . .

 

A) ugh, no need to tell me twice. But you know, suburb dad life etc. I'm sure they'll make it again next February. Possibly. But it'll be out of DC and reek of melon.
B) I'm sadly sure you're right. I assume no brewery is entirely innocent here, all the more reason frankly I hope Jean and his wife pay big time. Nothing would make other half (or any other brewer with real resources) move on fixing things faster than Jean and wife cashing out half their ownership and losing the bulk of control.

 

Maybe OH Domino park is... the other half?

No, no, that's fine, I can see myself out.

 

Yeah OH for the 1. Finback, ET, Grimm each get awarded fractional hype points

 

I was loving the Finback I was drinking while still in town.

 

People want real consequences for Jean and Julie. People want things to get better for Tired Hands' employees. I don't think that's unreasonable, and you also express a desire to see these outcomes.

Can you understand why we're unconvinced that anything will change just because of one Instagram post? And this came after a now-deleted post from Jean himself that took no ownership over the harm to his employees, and seemed not to be taking the issue seriously. That's the context in which people continue to express skepticism, and continue to demand more.

Too often, nothing is done, and the people responsible for toxic work environments are almost never held accountable in any meaningful way. It's not a "mob mentality" to want to see accountability, and so far, we have seen nothing that indicates there will be any. Given the nature of Tired Hands, accountability is going to have to be voluntarily taken by Jean himself. So of course that's what people want to see, and we haven't seen it. If anything, we've seen the opposite.

 

I’m just glad there’s an actual dialogue going on here, instead of the usual “fuck you, you piece of subhuman garbage” type replies you usually see with the majority of internet-based discourse. If there’s one positive that can be taken away from all this it’s at least some people can learn and hopefully understand different perspectives. That’s not to say you have to agree with one “side” or another, hopefully something constructive can come from it all instead of the usual “no, I’m right and everything I think and say is 100% correct”. The sooner we stop the insults and personal attacks over disagreeing viewpoints the better off we’ll all be as a whole, in my opinion. People don’t have to agree immediately or overnight but perhaps with time people can start to find some middle ground instead of just taking and sticking to one out of two “sides”. Binary thinking will be the death of us all, I swear. Trying to find a slicker lining, I suppose.

 

And really... This is a beautiful example of how we can have an open discussion on a public forum and civilly disagree. All of that, in my eyes, is completely okay. I don't feel @dropkick1977 is trying to be incendiary here, but varying opinions and our ability to actively listen to one another are integral to our growth as a society.

That...and drinking beer.