Toasted flaked oats in NEIPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by TKBC, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. TKBC

    TKBC Initiate (101) Jul 2, 2018

    Hey guys! Has anybody used (self) toasted flaked oats in a NEIPA yet? What experiences do you guys have?
     
  2. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    I have not, but I'm curious to find out what your is goal in using them.
     
  3. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (824) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Not a NEIPA, but I accidentally over-toasted some flaked rye and flaked oats for a saison I was brewing to have more of a fall bent, and figured I'd use them anyway. Mouthfeel and head were awesome, and the extra bit of toast worked well. Not sure how well it would work in a NEIPA, but knocking off a bit of the raw flavor might be nice; too many of them taste like you dropped a tablespoon of oatmeal in glass of mango nectar.
     
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  4. TKBC

    TKBC Initiate (101) Jul 2, 2018

    Well I don't have any honey malt here in Germany (cheers!) and just wanted to give my recipe an ever so slight biscuity toastiness.
    I've been using Pale Ale/Flaked Oats/Munich/Wheat Malt for a good while now and am pretty happy with that bill. I just would like to tweak it. I could imagine that I slight biscuit note would improve the beer?

    Cool! How much % of the bill would be "too many" in your experience?

    Cheers!
     
  5. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    IMO, your grainbill in an NEIPA should simply be a foundation for your hops. Use a more characterful base malt, like Maris Otter, and wheat and/or oats and I think you'll achieve that end. Munich malt is something that no hop forward beer should have, IMO, as it leads to premature oxidation, i.e. your hop character fading much more quickly than normal.
     
  6. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (824) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Not entirely sure, I don't really brew NEIPAs
     
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  7. TKBC

    TKBC Initiate (101) Jul 2, 2018

    Thanks for your reply.
    Why would you assume that Munich malt leads to premature oxidation? I've been using 10-15% in hoppy beers for years without any oxidation problems? I even bottle condition - without any problems so far.
    IMO, you always need a good balance between malt and hop character if you want a perfect beer. So - after already having tried this - just laying a simple foundation is not the approach I want to take when trying to optimise my NEIPA.
     
  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

  9. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (9,690) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Is honey malt considered as a usual ingredient in a NEIPA? I use it in mine but I thought I was being original in that... ? Have you ever used honey malt? I would guess not, but I don't feel it has any toastiness to it.
     
  10. TKBC

    TKBC Initiate (101) Jul 2, 2018

    Oxidized melanoidins. Reduced melanoidins are antioxidants. Also the beer should be gone by the time melanoidin based premature oxidation is an issue.

    I haven't ever used honey malt. But I've seen plenty NEIPA recipes that call for honey malt.
     
  11. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

  13. TKBC

    TKBC Initiate (101) Jul 2, 2018

    I don't think I have to state my opinion again. Let's please get back to topic.
    Experiences with toasted flaked oats.

    Edit: "Days of storage at 50°C".... lol
     
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,431) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Breaking News: @EvenMoreJesus attempts to convince brewer in Germany to stop using Munich malt. Details at 11.

    My experience with toasted flaked oats is that I didn't get much toasty-ness in the finished beer. Basically undetectable (though I wasn't doing a direct comparison). I used to toast them for oatmeal stouts, but stopped years ago and now use them untoasted. Perhaps I didn't toast them dark enough or didn't use enough oats. Also, I haven't tried them in an IPA.
     
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  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Hehehe. I thought that bit was amusing, as well.
     
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  16. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (138) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina

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  17. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (301) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Melanoiden malt is very similiar to honey malt and could be substituted.
     
  18. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,724) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium Member

  19. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,431) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Well... the dirty little secret to mitigating the problem of melanoidins oxidating alcohols is to keep O2 out. In quasi-chem notation...

    O2 + melanoidins + alcohol --> yucky aldehydes

    It pretty much always comes back to keeping the effing O2 out.
     
  20. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    I was going to post some stuff from the Low Oxygen Brewing site, but people seem to dislike that, so I didn't.
     
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  21. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (225) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    you keep @TheBeerery outta this :wink:

    @VikeMan as you know, the maillard products will transition from light cracker toastiness to toffee-caramel-honey to nutty aromas to more chocolate-coffee as the toasting continues. Maybe for the beer you were brewing, you didn't progress as far as you might have liked, or maybe just need a higher percentage. I did black IPA based on this recipe from Sean Lawson and I used about 5% each of flaked barley and flaked rye that I toasted up until it really started taking a heavy nut aroma (moderate browning) and thought it came through in the beer. Should revisit that recipe...

    Here was a great image a friend sent along to show the complexities of the maillard reactions.
     
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  22. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (176) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I also use honey malt in mine with a touch of c10.
     
  23. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (752) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    From your MoreBeer link:
    "Oxidized melanoidins, however, are blamed for some particularly unpleasant flavors and rapid deterioration in packaged beer. This is especially significant to craft brewers who bottle their beer and ship it over great distances."

    I do none of these...craft brewing, bottling, and shipping over great distances...my IPAs will continue to use ~15% Light continental Munich until I start desiring a lesser balance of malt flavor and hoppiness. YMMV :slight_smile: Cheers
     
  24. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (956) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Even though you don't bottle, you still package your beer, right? Are you racking under pressure? Is your CO2 the purest that you can get, i.e. very little oxygen content? How fast are you consuming your kegs of beer?

    Not trying to get you to change your thought process about recipe formulation, especially if your beers taste like you want them to taste, just trying to get people to see that this can be, and often is, an issue and why it is one.
     
  25. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (752) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    1. Not usually (I have the ability to, but can't justify the extra time to my taste buds)
    2. CO2 is as pure as any readily available at a reasonable price.
    3. Depending on style, anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years (with 3-4 months being the norm)
     
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