Troegs Cultivator Helles Bock

A wheat beer may be called a Weiße or Weisse (the ß was abandoned in some cases in newer German orthography, but in this case it would still be correct). But definitely not Weis, that word doesn't even exist.

 

Has anyone that has tried this also tried Olde Meck Fruh Bock? I would be interested in the similarities/differences.

 

You think so ? And to think that that was the 6th or 7th consecutively toned down version...

That aside, I'm well aware that many (if not most) Germans have a rather tenous hold on English. I react equally strong to official use in that case. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for mutilating language when a very simple search could've provided you with a proper result. Mind you, if some regular person misuses a word I'm a lot more forgiving.

 

Exactly

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I mutilate German grammar every time I speak/write it. The case system is relatively easy. As a primer for those baffled by it, the case system is extensively logical and easily useable.
My usual explanation is:

• Nominitiv = Sentence subject
• Akkusativ = Sentence direct object
• Dativ = Sentence indirect object
• Genetiv = Possessives
• Various prepositions in German are case specific, e.g. für always uses Akkusativ, von always Dativ, etc.

The article determiners, the der/die/das, however, are mostly idiosyncratic, i.e. random and not based on logical in the least, though some noun endings are case-specific, e.g. -nis = das, -heit/-keit = die.
To top that off, all adjectives have endings based on 1) the case, 2) the nouns article. And that's what's being discussed here.

I have a philosophical problem with these, and find I often really don't care if I get them right or wrong often, as long as I get the case correct. There are many which are so common in usage you really should know them, such as das Haus, der Mann, die Frau. Yet until there's a logical way to determine which is which, then my brain has better uses for the space it could allocate to these. (The most comparable part of English that is totally idiosyncratic is the use of gerunds or infinitives with certain verbs.)

That's why I think it's not important AT ALL if a non-native German speaker gets the adjective ending wrong for a name of a beer. It's completely baffling to hear ein Helles, but then hear Heller Bock. When a language appropriates non-native words into its own language, then it pretty much can do with what it wants, and usually does, irregardless of how much the native speaker turns his/her nose up at it. I DO NOT think it means that this brewery disrespected the original language or is a sign of not caring. IF that were the case, then I would go ballistic every time I pass the currywurst stand named Best Wurst in Town, to which surprisingly few Germans get the pun due to lack of English knowledge.

Also... to the misspelling of Sierra Nevada's Kellerweis, up until modern history, weis was an alternative spelling, as in the town WEISKIRCHEN, of which there are numerous town/cities sprinkled all over Germany,... so they could argue it is an old spelling meant to evoke an older time for older style beer.

 

Tony, I don't think you understand what I'm irritated about. I'm well aware of the problems Americans have with the completely random delivery of sexes in German. May I remind everyone that my wife is American ? I'm completely forgiving to an individuals mistakes in German and I'm well aware that even a growing number of (supposedly) German citizens can't get the language right.
What I am irritated about is when "my" language is mutilated in an official capacity such as completely wrong German talking in TV shows ("Grimm" is a prime example for this...) or on a beer label. In such an "offical" capacity it is unforgivable to get the language wrong and to not even care when told displays a monumental disrespect that just makes my blood boil.
So these guys want to make a German style beer and they can't even get the language on the damn label right ? It just tell volumes about their attention to detail and makes one wonder what else has escaped their notice...

 

From what I've been told, Sierra Nevada released their "Helles Bock" a few years ago and even had a half-dozen German brewers working there at the time. While it was a good beer, you'd think someone would have said something.

 

I get why you're irritated with this, but perhaps I can explain the other side a bit better (before ultimately agreeing with you...).

I detest going to New York and being served "Tex-Mex" salsa that is basically ketchup with Tabasco. Watching someone appropriate and misuse something over which you feel some cultural ownership is inherently irritating. But, to the New Yorker (God help them...), that ketchup concoction is their accepted version of salsa.

"Helles Bock" in this instance is New York salsa. You see the label as incorrect German, but for Troeg's, it's what their audience expects. This, as linguistically incorrect as it may be, is the English-language title of the beer style, and the marketing signal to which their market reacts.

Given that the yeast is so-named and the beer style is so-named, at what point are they expected to do research on a foreign language and check and see if the commonly held assumptions are correct? And even if they just asked someone who speaks German, they might have been told this was OK (as I was yesterday...).

So, it's possible they were lazy and paid no attention to detail. But it is also possible that they never even thought to check, or even that they did check and were given the wrong information. It is also quite possible they knew about it, and consciously chose to go with the "false" spelling, because that is the commonly-accepted term for that style of beer in the US. Wrong or not, they sell to the US market, so why cater to someone else?

Having said all of that, I tend to agree with you. If you want to use a foreign word in your marketing strategy, make sure it's used correctly (otherwise you just look stupid...). And if you want to serve something as "salsa", it should be more than ketchup and Tabasco...

 

And to Germans, this is a true Tex-Mex American-style pizza (note authentic corn niblets)

 

You gotta stop eating at those tourist traps

 

Still one of my favorites

 

*CRINGE*

 

*CRINGE*

 

"Bock" is male so the ending of the describing adverb "hell" must be male too, hence it's "Heller Bock". "Helles" is the neutral ending and they sure neutered their Bock and themselves.

Well, I don't know but personally I would expect someone attempting to brew a German style beer to at least get the name right. The way it is printed on every damn German bottle that holds Bock. Unless they never bothered to drink or research actual German Bock ? Whoever told you that that term was correct doesn't speak German. Getting the articles right is about 2nd lesson German...

The fact that it's a "commonly accepted term" in the US makes this so much worse...

Indeed.

 

One would indeed. *groan*

 

I should probably just save my breath ... but this statement kind of put my back up:

For the record, it was 3 different native German speakers (slow day at work...), and they all agreed that it was quite normal to assume the "-bier" ending in the phrase, making "Helles Bock" pretty standard usage. In fact, Duden agrees with them: "der Bock" is a male animal, while "das Bock" is listed as the shortform of Bockbier. It is interesting that the entry reads as "Bock, das, auch: der". In other words, they are both "correct". But perhaps the good folks at Duden don't speak German either?

 

I have honestly never heard or read of "Helles Bock" (until this discussion started anyways) nor of "Das Bock" as a short form for Bockbier in my 46 years. Intrigued about this conundrum I also asked my parents (both in their mid 70s) and several work collegues in the meantime and I should've photographed their reactions. Some were truely priceless
So, I don't know what language your Duden is in but it's certainly not the German I grew up speaking. Maybe they've changed it behind my back. They certainly have done that with spelling in the past 2 decades...

 

The Big Americans pizza (and the ketchup + tabasco salsa) remind me of that "Mexican" restaurant in central Munich, Sausalito's. I've never seen it where it wasn't totally packed and even a quick glance at the food made Taco Bell and microwave Mexican dinners look authentic.
On the plus side, there IS an authentic place near there called La Taqueria Milagros. It's run by some SW American ex-pats and they even serve Ayinger beers.

For a while my wife and I joked about retiring in Munich to open a real Mexican restaurant but someone beat us to it.

 

While I feel your pain, the problem is that Germans EXPECT to have nachos, deep fried mushrooms, buffalo wings and potato wedges at a Mexican place. If you gave them tamales, lime soup, stuffed poblanos and menudo you would go out of business. But as I ponder, possibly some of the mainstream fare that most gringos enjoy would be nice (fish tacos, carnitas, carne asada, etc).

But hey, don't they even screw up American food? How many burgers have I received in Germany that tasted like a Frikadelle (Bulette, Fleishpflanzl, etc)????

 

Yes they do. Just like the U.S. "craft"-brewers who screw up German beer. How many Pilsners, Koelsches, Helles, and Bocks have I shelled out $10+ for that tasted like yet another APA/IPA???