Troubleshooting new keezer issue

Discussion in 'Home Bar' started by cpferris, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    So i finally retired the danby and built out a keezer from a new Kenmore 24.6 cf chest freezer. I am cooling it with a Johnson A419. I've got 6 taps, all running new Perlick 525s. All beer lines are 5ft. For pressure, I bought a new 10# CO2 tank and a micromatic 4 way CO2 regulator (http://www.micromatic.com/product.aspx?pid=1164). Basically, I have the first two regulators dedicated for soda/homebrew. The remaining two regulators each have a y splitter for commercial kegs. Liquid temps are consistent between 39-40F.

    So on one of the y splitter lines, I am running a 1/6 of Stone Go-To and a 1/4 of Founders Porter. Historically, in my two tap Danby (5# CO2 tank with a y splitter) I would run these beers at around 10-11psi at around 39F. That usually gave me a nice pour. With the same settings on the keezer, it seems like the beer almost shoots out of the perlicks hitting me with a good 1/3 glass of head. I did not have Perlicks on the Danby, so I have no experience with those. I have never measured the lines on my Danby, but they have to be atleast 4ft (or more) with the tower. All things being equal, I can't figure out why things are so different with the keezer.

    I have dropped the pressure to around 8psi and it's a bit better but the first pour still seems slightly foamy. I had a tower cooler in the danby, but since the taps are attached to the collar, I figured there's be no line cooling issue with the keezer. Any ideas or suggestions?
     
  2. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    The Perlicks are low restriction and flow faster than a traditional rear closing faucet. Your beer lines in the Danby were probably 5' which is the norm for most off the shelf set ups. I'd go with longer lines. If you still have the old faucets from the Danby, throw them on in the mean time to prove that the Perlicks are the issue.
     
  3. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    I did not know that about the Perlicks being low restriction. So assuming that is the issue, how do you go about estimating how long the beer lines should be? I would assume that reducing the pressure is not a good solution, because then you aren't providing the proper vols of CO2 to the beer. I am familiar with the charts to calculate proper PSI given known altitude, temp and vols of CO2 required, but I have never seen anything that helps you figure out the proper line length.
     
  4. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    I have 525's and run 10' lines. My pours are a bit slow, but perfect. the suggested way to handle it is to start at 10' and cut down in 6" intervals to get the speed you want. I just never bothered to cut back. The line is cheap enough that it is an easy experiment to run. Most who lengthen lines wind up around 7'.
     
  5. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    I suppose I could experiment on one of the taps to get the right length. Assuming most beers I serve will be in the 10-12 psi range, I can assume that the tested lenght would work for all 6 taps.

    That said, I will probably just order a 100' spool to have excess on hand.
     
  6. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I think you are 90% of the way there.
    knowing the chart to determine proper psi to maintain vols will get you the proper PSI. we want to determine PSIG, gauge. that is to say the pressure you need to maintain vols plus added pressure to overcome restriction and gravity.

    but all of it is really too much thinking to be of any matter, with a keezer anyway.

    as Doug says, slap on 10 feet. if you get a solid pour you are good to go. 7 or 8 feet provides a lot of resistance and will slow your pour quite a bit. but you aren't a busy bar and the quality of the pour is more important than an 8 second pint.

    finally, remember that if you lower your pressure it can take a few days to equilibrate. you can turn off the gas supply and burp the keg to dislodge some of the dissolved CO2. the vols wont change for a while otherwise.
    Cheers.
     
  7. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    I think you guys are on the money. I just ordered a spool of new line and will start with 10 feet and test it back out. Luckily, I discovered this early and have a viable solution before wasting hardly any beer in the kegs. As for the remaining 4 new 5 foot lines currently on my unit, I will just give those to the guy who is going to buy my Danby. That will give him new lines to start with.

    Probably take a few days for the spool to get here. I'll report back later this week once I get the lines installed.

    Side note and completely off topic...what suggestions do you guys have for moisture control? Is a computer fan enough? I bought an Eva-Dry E500 off of amazon after reading that some people had good luck with those on homebrewtalk but even with that I am starting to see some moisture sitting in the edges of the unit.

    For anyone who cares...here's a couple pics of my build. This was before I ran the lines:
    [​IMG]
    This was after running the beer/gas lines:
    [​IMG]

    Overall, I am pretty happy with the build so far.
     
  8. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    that is a nice utilitarian keezer. neat and clean, and if it pours the perfect glass of beer it is just short of magic.

    I do not use any drying agent in my equipment. I used to use damp-rid, but it is more trouble than anything imo. just a bath towel occasionally and a shop vac for spills. if you have the lid sealed and don't open it up to often there isn't a lot of vapor transmission.
    I do not know of any good drying agents, I think they are all mediocre at best.

    Cheers
     
  9. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Pretty sweet!
    Make sure the lid and all the joints in the collar are tight. I used stick-on foam weatherstripping between the collar and the original seat for the lid. The magnetic gasket on the lid is flexible enough to create a good seal if things are pretty square. All the holes for lines, etc are filled with clear silicone. Don't open the lid unless you absolutely have to - that's how moisture gets in. I use Damp-Rid. It's out of site on the compressor hump. I'm not sure what the substantive difference is between that and the Eva-Dry E500. I dump about a pint of water when I 'recharge' it once a month or so and I haven't had a mold problem since I got it. I don't know what trouble billandsuz might have had with it.
     
  10. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Mike, from one cheap-o to another, buying Damp-Rid wasn't worth it for the value. Not for this cheap skate anyway. No problems, it works. Sort of. I just found that an occasional swab with a bath towel works just as well. And free.

    It's not like I'm advocating the use of pool chemicals :wink:

    Cheers.
     
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  11. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Ouch! :rolling_eyes:
    The problem I had with periodically wiping it down was that there was moisture that needed wiping down. Mold was a common sight. The Damp-Rid seems to have eliminated that.
     
  12. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    For your analytical side: This does a fair job of explaining what's going on, although the math is a little sticky. My experience is it always undershoots the length required. Don't know why, my math skills are okay . . . maybe I'm tape-measure challenged or maybe the physics don't jive at my house. Practically speaking I make the calculation then add 'bout 40% and whittle away if needed. After a while you just know what works for your setup. If you find yourself changing pressures it's easiest to have extra variable length lines on hand. I mean, what's another XX bucks for extra beer lines?

    I use an EVA-500 (10 cu ft keezer) and it probably helps some. Others have a couple and maybe it helps with moisture. I live in Florida so humidity is a killer . . . the shop vac is the savior. BTW, nice pics . . . makes me almost feel sorry for the guy pouring foamy Busch from a Haier.
     
  13. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    i just had a conversation with a major commercial equipment supplier. we were discussing why some of my calcs for resistance on a 50' to 60' install resulted in fubared pours.

    the industry standard 3# restriction per foot of 3/16" choker is apparently from the 1980s. modern vinyl beverage tubing is more like 2.2 to 2.3 according to their studies.

    so if you plan to have 15#'s it is possibly more like 11#'s. now I know.
    Cheers.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  14. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    Thanks for the comments. So say I run 10 foot lines...should I plan to do anything special with it (ie coil it) or just "let it lay" in the keezer. Seems like I am going to have alot of excess tubing laying around.
     
  15. zero_signal

    zero_signal Initiate (0) Aug 8, 2013 New Jersey

    Coil it...
     
  16. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    Not me. I hope he is enjoying a lousy tasting glass of foam right now.
     
  17. zero_signal

    zero_signal Initiate (0) Aug 8, 2013 New Jersey

    [​IMG]
     
  18. cpferris

    cpferris Zealot (512) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana
    Trader

    Looping back with an update. Got my spool of beerline today and placed 10 feet of line on 4 of the taps and the pour is MUCH better. For some reason though, the 1/6 of Stone Go To is still coming faster than I would like at 10psi and 10 feet of 3/16 line. That keg is on a splitter with Founders Porter and the porter is pouring perfect at 10psi (also at 10 ft).

    So 3 of the 4 are pouring just about where I want them, and the Go To is not completely cooperating.

    I still have the homebrew and soda lines to drop in tomorrow, but there's no urgency there as the root beer is still carbing up in the Danby.

    Thanks again for the assistance...and if anyone has any other ideas for what I might try with the Go To, I'd be all ears. Suppose I could cut an even longer line for that keg...but that seems pretty crazy,
     
  19. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    Maybe it is overcarbed, try taking it off the gas and relieving the pressure. Shake and repeat a few times over the next day, then reapply pressure. I wouldn't go longer.
     
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  20. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    +1 on that one being overcarbed. You can lower the pressure on that single keg to 2psi or so if you want to keep pouring while it's degassing. It'll take some time, but you'll get there. Like anything else worthwhile, patience is a virtue.
     
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