True English IPA or RIS?

The question is-what exactly IS the style? The OP asks for a true English IPA but it's a beer which has been around for so long that it has appeared in many forms.Is a true IPA the 1800 , the 1850 or the 1900 interpretation or what?
It's strange that this style still harks back to its roots yet mild, which has changed beyond all recognition is accepted for what it is at present.Brew a 6% pale mild these days and you will be told that it's "not to style" yet that's pretty much what it all was befote WW1.You just can't tie styles down for a beer that's been around for so long.
Edit-I dislike the tag "English" for a style in which the Scots were prominent.But then stout is regarded as Irish when it actually derives from London.

 

another problem with styles is that relevant factors are always arbitrary (or at least very subjective).

for example, the distinction between "english IPAs" and "american IPAs" in modern craft beer is basically the dominant presence of citrusy/piny west coast c-hops in the flavor.

but is the hop flavor really so different? in 1800, or 1850, or 1900, take whatever recipe that your hypothetical brewers might present as "a true IPA," and sub in some cascade. is it really going to be so shocking that they say "this is a new style!"? maybe, maybe not. who knows what they'd consider variation within style or among styles?

 

Brewers back then used ingredients from all over the world and if modern hops had been available then you can be sure they would have been incorporated.

 

exactly, just like US brewers now. i mean, if you brewed up an IPA that incorporated nelson sauvin, called it an "american IPA," let someone drink it, and they said, "this IS NOT to style, these nelson sauvin hops are too 'out there'!" the person would be laughed at (NS are used in D/IPAs all the time). but if you use some random hops from the northeast USA, it's a different style than if you use EKG? huh?

it's easy to tell the difference between the "two styles," but it's also easy to tell when someone's a foot taller than someone else, or has different colored hair. you don't say they're two "different kinds of people" though...

 

As I've only recently started to get into craft beers, I'm by no definition an expert on different hops, malts and other ingredients. From what I understand though, the most distinct difference between "original" British and American RIS and IPA styles are the following:

- British RIS tend to be sweeter, with a more up-front alcohol burn. From what I've tasted, American imperials tend to be a lot more malt-forward, especially in the roast and chocolate malts. This brings out a lot more coffee and dark chocolate notes that are usually not found in the British style. Usually you'd be looking at more booze, caramel and dark fruits in the British RIS. Thornbridge's St. Petersburg is a good example of that. Very sweet and sticky from what I remember (I had it quite a bit into the shit show at a pub once, so don't hold me to it ).

- American pale ales tend to make heavier use of fruity hop varieties. You see it in the British ones as well, but from what I hear from many a British beer geek, they've grown to love their own bitter and earthy hop varieties so much that they actually prefer it in their (I)PAs.

The American trend seems to be the dominant one in the last few years. Some countries (like my native Belgium) do some weird stuff to it. The latest trend seems to be to just dry-hop everything with citra, essentially making everything taste like a pale ale. Or, as an acquaintance of mine puts it: "subtle use of citra can be amazing, but when your beer tastes like you're licking a crate of grapefruits, something's gone horribly, horribly wrong".

 

“The question is-what exactly IS the style? The OP asks for a true English IPA …”

Boy, I am somewhat reluctant to tread in these shark infested waters but….

Marquis, I understand that you are not a fan of the BJCP style guidelines and believe me, I understand why. Having said that, I happen to think that the BJCP style guidelines provide a useful purpose beyond just providing ‘definitions’ for homebrew contests. Being able to have a dialog with the OP on what a “true English IPA” is one of those instances. Below is the Overall Impression paragraph for English IPA from the BJCP style guideline:

“Overall Impression: A hoppy, moderately strong pale ale that features characteristics consistent with the use of English malt, hops and yeast. Has less hop character and a more pronounced malt flavor than American versions.”

From my perspective the above paragraph provides a useful summary in describing a “true English IPA”.

Cheers!

P.S. My favorite English IPA is Meantime IPA. Meantime IPA is very consistent with the descriptions in the BJCP style guidelines for an English IPA. Below is a description from the Meantime website:

“India Pale Ale 7.4% ABV

India Pale Ale is the beer that sustained the British Raj – it did not just survive the passage to India, it matured to perfection on the long voyage. Original IPA was heavily hopped – up to twice as much as domestic beers - and so Meantime use plenty of Kent Fuggles and Goldings to help re-create the flavours of the world’s first great pale beer style.”

 

Point taken about the BJCP. I do get the feeling about their sections on British beers-and there aren't many days when I don't sample some! - I get the impression as if I've read a guide book of Britain written by someone who has never left Arkansas.A lack of a reality check.
The fact is that IPAs have been marketed as such for nearly two centuries and a lot can happen in this time-and it did! For the last few decades it's simply been another word for bitter. For the BJCP to say this is incorrect is to say we must remain true to the beer in the days of the Raj.In which case American IPA becomes a mild as it is consumed fresh.One significant difference between a "true" IPA and a New Wave American interpretation is that the originals were matured and the new ones would be drunk before they are brewed if that were possible.
Ah, Meantime's blurb.The beer which sustained the British Raj was porter.There was twice as much Porter sent to India as IPA.And 7.4% ABV is I believe stronger than any on record for the time.But Meantime's IPA is a damn fine pint so who cares? http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/ipa-the-hot-maturation-experiment/

 

“And 7.4% ABV is I believe stronger than any on record for the time.” That is an interesting comment. The Town Hall Historic 1800 IPA has an ABV of 8.2%. Assuming that they brewed per the malt bill of the 1800 recipe there appears to be at least one Pale Ale from 1800 that was strong from an alcohol perspective.

Cheers!

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1177/19041

 

Courage Russian imperial. Said to be the original RIS brewed for Catherine the Great.

 

My statement was made from memory after (and some time after) reading Ron Pattinson's blog from which I understood that he had found no record of any IPA over 7% ABV. IPAs were generally weaker than domestic beer at the time.

From the Town Hall website it's listed as 7.8% but is was brewed with modern malt which might have a higher extract that what was around in 1800.I'm possibly going to contradict myself though because one characteristic of IPA at the time was that of high attenuation-in other words the ABV would be higher than would be normal from the malt bill.But who knows the extract or fermentability of 1800 malt?

 

“But who knows the extract or fermentability of 1800 malt?” I certainly don’t know the exact answer to that question. Despite that, I am confident that the 1800 recipe that Town Hall based their English IPA upon resulted in a beer of higher alcohol (e.g., > 7% ABV).

Cheers!

 

Love your avatar JackHorzempa. My son got me a framed print of last summer and it hangs over my bedside table.

 

Do you get thirsty when you look at it!?!

Cheers!

 

Everytime. And everytime I think 'I gotta get me one of those glasses!'

 

'I gotta get me one of those glasses!' That would be sweet!

Cheers!

 

Great beer!

 

7.8% sounds very high for 1800. That's bang in the middle of the Napoleonic Wars which knocked British beer gravities down. For example, Porter went from 1070º to 1050º. I'd be surprised if an IPA of that date were over 1060º. Where did Town Hall get the recipe from? How do they know it's an IPA, seeing as the term wasn't used then?

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a Stock Ale recipe they used.

 

One thing that bothers me is that with all those extra hops it was termed an ale.Surely it should have been called a beer? There were extra hops added but extra to what? Do you have any records showing hopping rates over the 19th century?

 

“Where did Town Hall get the recipe from?" Ron, I really don’t know. The only descriptive information I could find was on the Northern Brewer website (see below). I frequently order my homebrew supplies from Northern Brewer. Apparently the head brewer of Town Hall, Mike Hoops, obtained the recipe.

As to whether the recipe was for a Stock Ale vs. a Pale Ale I really don’t know that either. I assumed it was a recipe for a Pale Ale since Mike Hoops gave the beer the name of 1800 Historic English IPA.

It would seem that Mike Hoops is the person ‘in the know’ here.

Cheers!

“Bronze Medal Winner, 2005 Great American Beer Festival. “Recipe converted from historic recipe dated from the year 1800. Bittering calculations were off the charts, so we used the same number of pounds of hops, but moved much of the addition to the later part of the boil. Original recipe called for 1 bittering addition. Very earthy, nutty malt character with a tremendous hops flavor!” –Town Hall Head Brewer Mike Hoops”

P.S. Do you think that Kristen England was a 'participant' in formulating this beer? I am speculating this solely due to the fact they are all in Minnesota.

 

I don't want to just start guessing. If anyone knows how I can get in touch with Mike Hoops, send me a private message.