Truth behind lager vs ale?

I think we're on the same page. I was not trying to say that Bock's are ales.

I was surprised to see them with english ale yeast fermented in the 60's fahrenheit while every american homebrewer I know or have seen are adamant that they are lagers to the point of decrying Maibocks that are made with "ale" yeast.

The true difference is not as cut and dry. It was further reinforcing my thought that if a beer is lagered it should be called a lager regardless of the yeast used... That said as has been pointed out in the other thread you brought up there are significant genetic differences between what we call ale yeasts and lager yeasts... So is there more or equal merit in categorizing beers based on the species of yeast used or the process used.

English, Belgian, American, and weizen yeast strains are all saccharomyces cerevisiae. The same species just variations.
"Lager" strains are saccharamyces pastorianus.

Is it more or less appropriate to characterize bocks by the use of one of these two species as opposed to the process of lagering.

 

Probably not. But if they brew a weissbier then I assume they would be bringing in another yeast for that.

But that doesn't really matter. If the tiny franconian village breweries have an ideal yeast for fermenting Märzen that doesn't mean that it'll be the ideal yeast to ferment Pils. It will probably be delicious but there may be another one that would taste better for what you want a Pils to be. It may mute hop character that some brewers would want or provide subtle fruity flavors.

If a brewery has a great yeast for Pils that doesn't mean that it'll be ideal for Dunkler Bock. It may make it more dry than you'd want and maybe be very susceptible to the alcohol.

The yeasts will make very good beers but that doesn't mean if someone wants particular characteristics in their Pils that every yeast will be exactly what they want.

 

Es tut mir leid. I don't know if I chose the wrong words or just didn't think through how to express my thoughts... I do often have trouble putting my thoughts into words.

I sincerely hope that the franconian brewer in your example fully believes that his beers are the best in Germany. Just as I sincerely hope that every Munich brewer thinks their beers are the best in Germany and every brewer in Saarland thinks the same of their beers.

I will assume that the community the brewer is in desires the beers in the style that the brewer makes and loves their beers...

But of course everyone's tastes are slightly different. There may even be somebody in the franconian brewery's town that would prefer a Vogel pils or Rothaus pils, or even Jever.

So yes the yeast the franconian brewer uses is ideal for their purpose... But it will not be ideal for every brewer and every community.

There may be a brewer that wants the flavor/characteristics produced in an obergärige bock, while they want a dry crisp very hoppy pils, and a very clean yet malty helles or dunkel.

Some people want their schwarzbiers with lots of bready almost caramel flavors while others want dry moderately roasty ones. Personally I want a schwarzbier that has similar characteristics to a pils but roasty with a mild dark malty flavor.
Other people want to use a significant proportion of munich malt and subdued rostmalt.
The two interpretations of schwarzbier would probably be best complemented by different yeast strains. Neither is better or worse than the other. Both types of beer are great but for the specific persons desires one yeast strain is ideal for that beer.

Now I don't know how he actually broached the topic with the instructor. He may have just said "what is the best yeast for a pils". That can still be a broat interpretation of the desired characteristics as you point out, and the instructor is correct in saying that any bottom fermenting yeast can be ideal.

But if there were specific characteristics about what comprises a great pils in the persons mind then there may have been a specific yeast that would have been ideal.

 

I know there are lots of things that go into it. There is the mashing process (decoction, infusion, step infusion including the temperatures and times), and water chemistry, and fermentation controls themselves...

But that doesn't mean that the yeast strain doesn't have an impact as well. The selection of a different yeast strain can make a subtle difference to the finished product. For a pils maybe you like a slight sulphur component to emphasize the crispness. Some yeast strains produce more noticeable sulphur compounds than others.

Some people like diacetyl in certain beers. If they are brewing both a bohemian pale lager and a german style pils then they may want a yeast that produces virtually no noticeable diacetyl for the german pils and one that does produce discernable diacetyl for the bohemian pale lager.

Some yeast strains have different attenuation so you may use slightly lower attenuating yeast for a bock than for a pils.

Yeast isn't the only aspect here. But it can be a piece of the overall puzzle.

And again tastes vary from person to person and brewer to brewer. If a brewer wants a malty pils with only a slight hop bitterness then choosing a big sulphur producing yeast strain will just make their job a lot harder... Because they'll be fighting to restrict the yeast character to make the beer they want.

 

My phone notified me that he posted that article. I haven't had a chance to look through it but I thought it was very timely. Before I look at it I will say that was one of the first things that got me looking around at this. There was a seemingly off hand remark on one of the german forums that there was debate on whether to use top-cropping or bottom-cropping yeast for schwarzbiers.