uncontrolled temperature fermentation Lager yeast

Caveat: I can only speak from previous first- hand experience...
I use a pretty big Rubbermaid bin (21"L x 14"W x 12"D) ~ 1/2 full with cold water. By swapping out a refreezable ice pack (~ 9" x 9" x 1") twice a day, I'm able to maintain a stable 10*F deficit without the t-shirt mess. I think the key to stability is a large volume heat sink.

 

What puzzles me is why you even care how many cells are in a smackpack. You don't make starters based on a specific gravity, or on the age of the yeast. So you do not subscribe to any particular pitch rate. So why would it matter to you how many cells are in the pack on day one?

 

I do indeed make starters with considerations of original gravity and age of the smack pack (and also ale vs lager considerations). I will be doing so today with a smack pack of Wyeast 2124 that I will brew a Bohemian Pilsner later this week.

Needless to say I will not be using the Mr. Malty yeast calculator since it contains a number of inaccuracies/conservative assumptions.

Cheers!

 

Last time we discussed your practices, it was "no starter below OG of 1.060, 1.5 Liter starter if above 1.060, as long as the yeast is not expired." IOW no specific gravity. No variable viability based on age. No count per volume per gravity. Or did something change?

 

I even already have a chest freezer so there's really no excuse no to except that my basement is perfect for ales all year round (consistent in fermentor temps of 64, and I move the fermenter upstairs to room temp near the end of fermentation to help clean up any diacetyl.

 

You need to take this privately!

 

Why?

 

calculators online will get you in the ball park. Lagers take ALOT of yeast. If you make a lager with liquid yeast and no starter, you messed up. Period.

You also would benefit from an 02 set up as well. More so for lager than ales, but both need it.

 

Ehh.. I think there's two modes of thinking there, and I like the back and forth. Food for thought if anything.

 

I've already broken out the popcorn for the battle of the beeradvocate homebrew sanseis. Honestly as long as non-one’s too sensitive or critical it's just an interesting discussion.

 

I guess I mess up all the time! I have never made a starter. I have and do pitch on yeast cakes and harvested yeast. I do pitch 2 vials for Lagers and even high gravity beers. I have never had any issue with my beer finishing. I will also ferment at higher then normal temps with no issue. Yeast is a very hardy organism and more tollerent then what people think it is.

 

I'll shut up!

 

To each his own. Sounds like under pitching to me. Using old cakes is fine, but could be considered over pitching to a degree.. I'm sure you make fine beer however you do it.

 

“I do pitch 2 vials for Lagers and even high gravity beers.” That sounds right to me.

While some folks are of the opinion that pitching two packages of yeast for these cases represent “underpitching” the fact of the matter is that if you are consistently making quality beer via this method then by definition you are not “underpitching”.

I also pitch at amounts similar to what you stated (for both lagers and high gravity ales) and I consistently produce high quality beers. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the ‘results’ that are produced by the yeast calculator on the Mr. Malty website are much too large for what is needed to conduct a healthy fermentation. The inflated results from the Mr. Malty yeast calculator are a result of inaccuracies/conservative assumptions within that tool.

Cheers to you sir!

 

So if someone ferments their beer too warm for the strain of yeast, and HAS off flavors, but isn't offended by them, or even skilled enough to detect them, then by that definition, they didn't ferment it too warm? Because if they alone like it, then it's not a bad temp to ferment it at?

I'll agree that there are some things that aren't hard and fast in brewing, and you can get away with some things and not have an issue. But most people don't care, or understand yeast and temp control, and that alone is why most people make shit beer, or stop brewing, or they just aren't honest about their beers.

I've made beers that are drinkable. That I'd like to brew again and make better because of simple stuff like yeast handling, which makes all the difference.

 

“So if someone ferments their beer too warm for the strain of yeast, and HAS off flavors, but isn't offended by them, or even skilled enough to detect them, then by that definition, they didn't ferment it too warm? Because if they alone like it, then it's not a bad temp to ferment it at?” I have never made a post where I suggested that a homebrewer should “ferment their beer too warm”. In fact quite the opposite: I consistently post that homebrewers should ferment their beers within the yeast manufacturer’s recommend fermentation temperature range for a given yeast strain.

“I'll agree that there are some things that aren't hard and fast in brewing, and you can get away with some things and not have an issue.” I have never suggested that a homebrewer should “get away with some things”. The fact of the matter is that the Mr. Malty yeast calculator provides ‘results’ that are larger than what is needed. To put a finer point on the discussion, the Mr. Malty yeast calculator is inaccurate since it contains a number of inaccuracies/conservative assumptions.

“That I'd like to brew again and make better because of simple stuff like yeast handling, which makes all the difference.” I also believe that proper yeast handling should be maintained. If you pitch per the recommendations of the yeast vendors (Wyeast, White Labs, Lallemand, Fermentis, etc.) you will be practicing proper yeast handling.

If for some reason you feel compelled to utilize the inaccurate yeast calculator tool on the Mr. Malty website please do so. To suggest that homebrewers that do not utilize the inaccurate results from the Mr. Malty yeast calculator and to further suggest they are practicing improper yeast handling is not appropriate.

Cheers!

 

How do you calculate your starter size to ensure your preferred pitch rate (and what is that rate)? If Mr. Malty is wrong, surely you have a better calculator.

 

If you pitch per the recommendations of the yeast vendors (Wyeast, White Labs, Lallemand, Fermentis, etc.) you will be practicing proper yeast handling.

Cheers!

 

The vendors recommendations don't specify a pitch rate in cells per volume per gravity. Do you think they should?

 

I think yeast vendors should provide the information that homebrewers need to have healthy fermentations using their products.

I appreciate that Wyeast provides this information clearly on their Technical Information ‘tab’:http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_techinfo.cfm

In the past, Dr. Tobias Fishborn of Lallemand has ‘bent over backwards’ to answer my technical questions on Danstar products.

Dr. Chris White responded openly and transparently to all of the numerous queries I posed to him at NHC 2013.

I am of the opinion that the scientists at all of the yeast vendors freely provide accurate technical information so that homebrewers such as me can conduct successful fermentations and produce high quality homebrewed beers.

Cheers to all of the folks at the various homebrew yeast vendors!