uncontrolled temperature fermentation Lager yeast

Chris White told me that to really know how much you pitch you need a microscope and a hemocytometer to count cells. He said it was worth it if you really want to dial it in.

 

Wyeast's website says their Activator packs are designed to deliver 'professional pitch rates' of 6 million cells per ml per degree plato while the White Labs FAQ quotes a recommended ratio of 1 million cells/ml according to 'professional brewery literature'.

hopfenunmaltz makes a good point about microscopes. Having a number to shoot for is nice but how do you know if you hit the mark without counting?

Finally yeast strain and beer style are other factors that affect 'optimal' pitch rate.

 

So if I told you that a Wyeast microbiologist who answers customer inquiries says that starter sizes should vary according to wort gravity, would you believe this to be accurate technical information that homebrewers need to have healthy fermentations using their products?

 

Too late to edit my prior post, but the Wyeast actually says 6 million cells per ml for gravities <= 1.060 at 70F. No term for specific gravity.

 

You missed my whole point. You claimed that some people said his 2 vials could be underpitching by some, but if he made good beer, then by that guideline of being good to him, it wasn't underpitching.

I used the temp of fermentation as an example. If I ferment too warm, and it taste okay to me, then by your definition, it's okay and not too warm.

 

Yeah I was just gonna point this out too and say the the proper rate that I go by is 1million per ml per degree plato repeated to me hundreds of times by Charlie Bamforth

 

I'ts pretty obvious that Jack was refering to me on his post. If you are inclined to make starters have fun with it. I do not make starters because I am lazy. I have also not seen any difference between harvesting yeast and repitching or using 2 vials. I might even go back to using 1 vial of certain strains. I belong to a large brew club and sample alot of homebrew from very good brewers that make starters and worry about cell count and what Mr. Malty has to say. However their beer is not any better then mine. To each there own.

 

Yeah, it was obvious, he quoted you twice.

But my point I was bring about was him saying that if you ( or someone, for that matter ) doesn't find a flaw by doing something wrong, it by definition doesn't exactly make it "right".

I'm not trying to argue really, I just thought that was a rather odd thing to say, and more or less a way to dismiss any real truth to the matter.

Everyone has their own pitch rate they run by. You can make beer with 1 vial, or even a half vial for that matter if you so choose.

I've found that using a calculator and the assumed count from the yeast pack, based on an estimate of the date works. I've also found that pitching the correct amount of yeast does indeed without a doubt make better beer. Not just my own personal take on the beer, as I know we can be our harshest critics and even ones to talk up our own concoctions from one end to the other.

 

“I've also found that pitching the correct amount of yeast does indeed without a doubt make better beer.” I agree 100% with that statement. The point I made was that the ‘results’ from the Mr. Malty yeast calculator is not “the correct amount of yeast” because the Mr. Malty yeast contains a number of inaccuracies/conservative assumptions.

If an individual wants to pitch yeast per the Mr. Malty yeast calculator please feel free to do so but it should be recognized that the Mr. Malty yeast calculators yields incorrect values.

Cheers!

 

Sorry, I definty don't want this to sound like I'm piling on, but what do you use to determine the proper pitch rate?

I honestly have no idea if the Mr. Malty calculations are too conservative or not, but I know I've seen a signifiant increase in the quality of my beers by using a starter. I was using Mr. Malty, but have switched to Vikeman's sheet. In theory I like your references to a cleaner fermentation from lower pitch rates/ slightly underpitching, but would love to better understand what you're actually doing. Personally if I were to lower my pitch rate, I would probably use the same formulas and adjust down to the desired cell count/ adjust the starting cell count.

 

I personally pitch yeast amounts consistent with what the yeast vendors recommend.

I posted the below previously:

I appreciate that Wyeast provides this information clearly on their Technical Information ‘tab’:http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_techinfo.cfm

I highly recommend that you read the information on the above website/link. If you homebrew per the recommendations on that website/link you will have healthy fermentations.

Cheers!

 

Thanks, I have actually read almost all of that link. Can I assume you're using the one million cells per milliliter per degree plato rule? Can I assume you start with 6 million cells per millileter per vial activator from your earlier post(assuming a 5 gallon batch)?

So just as a quick example a 1.1 RIS would need 24 million cells/ml or 4 smack packs/ equivalent starter. It seems like you might be advocting less, which agan I'm not trying to argue but would like to better understand where you're coming from.

 

Permit me to offer an alternative example of an ale of OG = 1.050. My personal practice for brewing this beer would be to pitch a single Wyeast activator pack.

If I used the Mr. Malty yeast calculator and ‘plug in’ OG = 1.050 and ale that tool would indicate that I should pitch 1.9 smack packs. That ‘result’ of 1.9 smack packs is incorrect; it is ‘off’ by 100% which is quite an error.

Cheers

 

@JackHorzempa what kind of pitch do you do for say a 1.055 OG lager?

 

I would highly recommend that you read the technical tab on the Wyeast website.

In a prior post I stated:

“For a moderate gravity lager (e.g., 1.050) which you will pitch at around 60°F, Wyeast would suggest that you need something like 200 billion yeast cells of Wyeast 2124. You can obtain this by pitching two smack packs (assuming they are relatively fresh like 1-2 months old) or you could make a starter to double the number of cells from a single smack pack.”

Cheers!

 

Wait I'm confused, by that same math from the link doesn't that also suggest that 2 smack packs is correct? 1.05 SG = 12 Plato, which would require 12 million cells/ml or two smack packs. Is wyeast too conservative too?

 

I hate when yeast companies endorse pitching lagers warm.

 

IMO, it's because they are more concerned about getting questions/complaints about slow fermentation starts with the underpitches they are recommending (for marketing reasons) than they are with homebrewers making great beer.

 

The following is quoted directly from wyeasts lager brewing site.

"Lagers typically have a reduced ester profile and are characterized as clean with discernable malt character. It is very important to recognize that pitch rate is directly related to ester production. Increasing the quantity of yeast pitched is the most effective method of reducing the ester profile in the finished beer. A minimum of 12 million cells per milliliter is recommended to keep esters at a minimum.

One Wyeast Activator pack will deliver about 6 million cells per milliliter to 5 gallons of wort. In order to increase this rate to 12 million cells per milliliter it is necessary to either pitch two Activators or to make a 0.5 gallon (2 liter) starter with an Activator. If a starter is made using a Propagator (50ml package) then the starter needs to be 1 gallon (3.78 liters) to achieve 12 million cells per ml."

Yeast companies don't give homebrewers much credit and or respect. They endorse the minimum amount of cells you need to pitch to make decent beer. Pitching warm since they know we all under pitch. Dry yeast manufacturer's recommend that pro brewers rehydrate their yeast but home brewers will be fine by just sprinkling the yeast on top of the wort (killing up to half the cells). Why must they assume that we're all lazy bums not willing to take the necessary steps to make excellent beer?!

I really wish they would tell us what they're maximum pitching recommendation is. Maybe some of us would like to pick a middle grounds rather than bare minimum.

 

1.05 SG = 12 Plato, which would require 12 million cells/ml or two smack packs.
Where did you get that?

More accurately 1.050 equates to 12.5°P but that has absolutely nothing to do with the “12 million cells/ml” that you have stated.

It very clearly states on the Wyeast website:
STYLE
GRAVITY
PITCHING
TEMPERATURE(°F)
FERMENTATION
TEMPERATURE(°F)
PITCH RATE(Million Cells/ml.)
Ale
<1.060 (15P°)
>65
>65
6.00

I will emphasize once again that an ale with an OG < 1.060 (and 1.050 is less than 1.060) has a need for a pitch rate of 6 million cells/ml. This equates to a single smack pack.

I have no way of saying this diplomatically so I will state this plainly: are you having difficulty understanding the information that Wyeast is presenting on their website?

Cheers!