uncontrolled temperature fermentation Lager yeast

Actually here: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm Wyeast suggests a lager pitch rate of 1 pack if pitched warm. Is this a process you advocate (and more importantly, do yourself)?

 

“I really wish they would tell us what they're maximum pitching recommendation is. Maybe some of us would like to pick a middle grounds rather than bare minimum.”

Pat, it really is pretty simple. You can pitch the amount that Wyeast recommends and make a high quality beer. I brewed my 325th beer today (a Bohemian Pilsner) today and I pitched my yeast as per the Wyeast recommendation. I have done this many, many times before and every one of my lagers have turned out great. I pitched my yeast at 1:00 pm and I have already seen signs of fermentation (less than 8 hours from the pitch).

If for some reason you feel compelled to pitch at a ‘higher’ pitch rate you have lots of options. You can use the Mr. Malty yeast calculator for example; that tool will instruct you to pitch way too much yeast. Another option for you is to just pitch 1.5 x what is mentioned on the Wyeast website.

At the end of the day it is your beer. You should do what is comfortable for you. If you want to pitch additional packages of yeast or make a yeast starter way bigger than necessary, ‘knock your socks off’.

Cheers!

 

I have already posted in this thread:

“I do indeed make starters with considerations of original gravity and age of the smack pack (and also ale vs lager considerations). I will be doing so today with a smack pack of Wyeast 2124 that I will brew a Bohemian Pilsner later this week.”

Are you just messing with me or do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Cheers!

 

I don't doubt that your making excellent lager beer @JackHorzempa with the yeast companies recommendation. I've only done two lagers so far and both used Jamils calculator and both were pitched cold (45f) and allowed to free rise to ~50f. Both beers were very clean and enjoyable. I like to err on the side of over pitching with lagers but that's just me being a noob.

Oh yea one time I under pitched a lager with 34/70. 1 rehydrated pack for a 1.048 OG pils. Very lack luster compared to my two other lager beers that were pitched on the "high" side.

 

“I don't doubt that your making excellent lager beer @JackHorzempa with the yeast companies recommendation. I've only done two lagers so far and both used Jamils calculator and both were pitched cold (45f) and allowed to free rise to ~50f. Both beers were very clean and enjoyable. I like to err on the side of over pitching with lagers but that's just me being a noob.” You should pitch at a rate that you feel comfortable with; that is exactly the right thing you should do. To make posts that what the yeast vendors are stating via the word “minimum” as though that is a bad thing is inappropriate. Those rates can very much make high quality beers and to insinuate otherwise is not proper.

“Oh yea one time I under pitched a lager with 34/70. 1 rehydrated pack for a 1.048 OG pils. Very lack luster compared to my two other lager beers that were pitched on the "high" side.” I have never brewed with lager dry yeast so I really do not know how to properly comment to that. What I can state is that based upon what I have read about W 34/70 is that if I ever chose to brew with that yeast I personally would re-hydrate two packets of that yeast for my lagers.

I will once again state that homebrewers should pitch at amounts recommended by the yeast vendors (e.g., pitch two packets of lager dry yeast).

Cheers!

 

It does if you are using a rule of thumb.

 

He's using the 1million cells/mL/degree Plato rule to pitching and assuming 12 degrees plato which comes out to 12 million cells/mL. The real number for 1.050 wort is closer to 12.5 million cells/mL, but the fact that you would need 2 smackpacks remains.

 

I wonder then why you choose to believe some of the non-conservative assumptions Wyeast makes, but not the others? That is all.

It seems you pick and choose whatever information you like and ignore the rest, like the anti-GMO crowd.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the assumptions Jack ignores are the yeast viability assumptions of MrMalty, not the pitching rate assumptions. MrMalty makes it seem like most of your yeast is dead when it may not be. Its consevative that way.

 

Jack has said otherwise. I posted a link to a pitching rate from Wyeast he claims to disbelieve...

 

I saw this blog post recently (thought it was in this thread, but I guess not), and it's pretty interesting regarding underpitching or overpitching. The blogger shows pretty convincingly that you can ferment a beer out, even when you grossly under-pitch. You can even get higher attenuation (whether it's 'better' or not is up to the drinker) with low pitch rates than you get with the recommended rate. It makes me think that Jack may not be that wrong (although the scientist in me disagrees with him), just because even if you're off by 50% or so on the pitch rate, it probably doesn't matter that much in the end. I suspect that with a lager yeast, the flavor differences may be a lot smaller than with ale yeasts, just because they're cleaner on the whole.

 

There are a number of inaccuracies/conservative assumptions that are part of the Mr. Malty yeast calculator which I have detailed many times in numerous posts.

Firstly, the Mr. Malty yeast calculator states that a brand new package of yeast contains less than 100 billion yeast cells. As I have posted numerous times:

“Wyeast’s 125 mL Activator packs are advertised to contain 100 billion cells, but actually average around 120–130 billion cells, according to Les Perkins, microbiologist and quality control manager for Wyeast.”
The difference between 120 -130 billion yeast cells and less than 100 billion yeast cells is HUGE!
Secondly, the Mr. Malty yeast calculator assumes that 21 billion yeast cells die every 30 days (for the first 4 months). This value of die off is conservative. When you add in the fact that over the first 30 days that the Mr. Malty yeast calculator assumes that there are only something like 76 viable yeast cells (since it started off with an inaccurately low yeast cell count to begin with) then you have a ‘double whammy’.

Thirdly the Mr. Malty yeast calculator assumes that a pitch rate of 0.75 million cells/ml/P (which is appropriate for the case of reusing yeast; it is not an appropriate pitch rate if you utilize new packages of liquid yeast cells) there is one additional inaccuracy/conservative assumption.

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can: if you add inaccuracy to conservative assumption upon inaccuracy/conservative assumption then the net result is a result which is very inaccurate.

One mo’ time: if homebrewers want to pitch yeast per the results of the Mr. Malty yeast calculator please do. To make posts that the results of the Mr. Malty yeast calculator represents proper yeast handling, considering all of the above aforementioned errors, is simply not right.

Cheers!

 

For the record, every one of the 'inaccuracies/conservative assumptions' Jack refers to in the post above is either a matter of opinion (about being conservative) or a 'fact' that has not been proven (about inaccuracies).

 

Even on the Mr. Malty FAQ it states:

“An Analysis of Brewing Techniques, George Fix states that you need to pitch 0.75 million cells per milliliter for an ale and 1.5 million cells per milliliter for a lager. While these rates are for repitching yeast harvested from fermentation..”

That is “proof” as far as I am concerned.

And needless to say I view: “Wyeast’s 125 mL Activator packs are advertised to contain 100 billion cells, but actually average around 120–130 billion cells, according to Les Perkins, microbiologist and quality control manager for Wyeast.” as “proof”.

Cheers!

 

That's an opinion that you share, not proof. In fact, there can be no proof of this claim, repitching qualifier or not, because of subjective results.

I believe you read this in an article. It does not prove that each pack really contains 120-130 billion cells. It's interesting that Wyeast doesn't claim on their package or website that there are 120-130 billion cells. And what kind of 'average' is stated as a range? Think about that. It's heresay. So count them yourself, or stop stating it as fact.

 

I would probably think assuming you have LESS than what you might to be a good thing. You won't be overpitching too much, but quite honestly I feel from experience and reading that overpitching is FAR less a problem than the issues with underpitching.

Thats my take on the whole thing. I might have 80B cells in the pack, and think I have 70B, than think I have 80B and actually have 70B.

 

It would appear the word “proof” has some ambiguity. In this post I shall details facts.

Number of yeast cells in a Wyeast Smack Pack

“Wyeast’s 125 mL Activator packs are advertised to contain 100 billion cells, but actually average around 120–130 billion cells, according to Les Perkins, microbiologist and quality control manager for Wyeast.” It is a fact that a factory fresh Wyeast Smack Pack contains greater than 100 billion cells by large margin. I see no reason to ‘parse’ what the word “average” means.

Pitching Rate for using new yeast packages

Below is information from an article authored by John Palmer:

“The pitching rate most commonly mentioned in the homebrewing literature is 1 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato

What is often not mentioned is that this recommendation is for re-pitched yeast — such as you would get from the bottom of the fermenter from a previous batch. That yeast is not at peak vitality (i.e., health) and viability (i.e., % alive), depending on age in the fermenter, previous original gravity, etc.

Below is from the Mr. Malty FAQ concerning pitching a new yeast package (Wyeast Smack Pack & White Labs vials):

“This is a pitching rate of 5.3 million cells per milliliter, which is close to the pitching rate many professional breweries begin with when starting a new pitch of ale yeast. This rate works well because the health and vitality of fresh laboratory cultured yeast are superior to yeast harvested from normal fermentation”.

It is a fact that a pitching rate of 0.75 (or 1) million cells/ml/P is for the case of reusing yeast and it is greater than what is needed for the case of pitching new yeast.

Cheers!

 

"Congrats." You've 'said 'it enough times to make it 'true."

 

Because you've both been beating this dead horse on several different threads...or not...your choice