Underpitching Question

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Drel, Jul 25, 2017.

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  1. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Hey all,

    Brewed a batch yesterday and I am trying to purposefully stress some dry yeast to see how they respond before throwing in a packet of S05 @ 48 hours. I pitched 2 grams of dry yeast into about 4.5 gallons last night and haven't seen any activity yet. I am fine with the no activity but I am wondering if I am leading myself into possible issues with oxidation or infection by not having a lot of fermentation going on yet. I have the beer in a ferm chamber at about 60 degrees. Should I ditch the experiment and pitch the S05 or just wait it out?
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “Should I ditch the experiment and pitch the S05 or just wait it out?”

    If the purpose of your experiment is to learn something you should continue as you planned.

    If instead you want to produce drinkable beer (I am gathering this via your comments of: leading myself into possible issues with oxidation or infection) then you should have pitched a whole packet of dry yeast right away.

    What exactly are you looking to achieve here?

    Cheers!
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  3. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I agree with Jack. If you want to guarantee drinkability, use more yeast. I am an advocate for using less dry yeast than anyone else recommends; however, even I would recommend a minimum of 3 or 4 grams for that volume, if not 5 or 6. But on the other hand, like Jack says, if you want to learn stuff and don't care about drinkability, then please leave it alone... and PLEASE, let us know how it turns out! Thanks!
     
  4. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I'm trying to see what kind of esters I can achieve with a dry Belgian strain if purposefully stressed. I definitely want a drinkable beer but would also like to see if I can get some decent esters with it. I guess I'd rather just not lose the batch at this point and I assume it should not be ruined <24 hours after underpitching if I add the rest when I get home.

    Additionally, how long does wort maintain if chilled appropriately before pitch?
     
  5. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    With a Belgian yeast, I personally would only add 2 or 3 more grams, not the whole pack. This is where my advice differs from everyone else's. If you do this, please let me know how you like it.
     
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Nobody can definitively answer that question since it depends on your personal sanitation processes. If you have a conscientious sanitation process than at less than 24 hours you should be fine.

    I am uncertain whether you will truly see the effects of "stressing yeast" if at some later time you pitch a whole packet of dry yeast. To truly see the effects of stressing yeast the only thing that you should do is underpitch and that's it.

    Cheers!
     
  7. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Underpitching yeast does not stress the yeast. It simply increases your log phase.

    If you sanitize well, you should have no concerns.

    As long as you keep your fermentation temperatures in this range, you will not cause increased ester formation, which most people are looking for by "stressing" yeast. Since the majority of ester formation occurs during the log/growth phase, the only thing this low temperature will cause is making your already elongated log phase caused by underpitching to be even slower.

    If you want to "stress" your yeast and increase ester formation, increase the temperature at which you pitch your yeast. The problem with this is that you can cause unwanted esters and fusels, but if you want to experiment, that's the variable that I would suggest changing.
     
  8. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader

    My thought is that the majority of esters are usually produced during the first 48 hours (I believe). So if I underpitch and create esters with the Belgian strain I can then fully pitch the rest of a neutral yeast as a main driver for fermentation. Again...very experimental and my proposed plan will probably change.

    I had previously thought this as well but I had sent an email to the company regarding isoamyl production with their strain and they said that the greatest concentration was seen when the yeast was underpitched and at 10-14C (55-57F) which is why I set my temp there to begin with
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  9. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I use 36 hours with no visible activity as my rule of thumb for when to pitch additional yeast, as far as proofing yeast / preventing contamination. And that's pushing it. 24 hours is probably a wiser limit if you really want to minimize odds of contamination.
     
  10. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Sure, but it's not a time thing, it's a yeast growth thing.

    Does your Belgian strain not attenuate well?

    A-ha, I see what you're going for. Esterase activity is, indeed, strain dependent. Care to share your strain and its manufacturer?
     
  11. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    You want an experiment? Let it ride.

    Oxidation is not going to happen in the first two days of fermentation because that is the other thing they are craving while they try to tackle what you gave them to feast on.
    Infection is also not going to happen unless they find out that your sanitation habits for their temporary residence are lacking. They may not give you a lot of activity. But, they should give you enough, and good enough c02 blanket to fight off most external sources of infection.

    A few thoughts on the idea.
    If you want them to be stressed. Letting them hang around in a 60 degree environment is not going to provide that. Go towards the high side of their temp range and let them rumble in that. They are going to work slow at that temp, and you didn't mention feeding them oxygen or nutrients, so I predict they'll poop out and leave you with a higher finishing gravity.
     
  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    With this in mind, the only reason that one would underpitch would be to cause more isoamyl acetate production due to a longer log phase, not because of increased stress.

    I think this brings up a good point. By underpitching, you're not going to make yeast make esters that they otherwise wouldn't, but you ARE going to give ones that do make esters more time to do so. Problem? Esterase activity is a two-edged sword, as esters are simultaneously created and destroyed until a certain metabolic equilibrium is reached, so it isn't like you're just going to keep creating more and more esters if more time is given.

    If you add an increased temperature to that, you're probably going to create even more, but you'll also create other byproducts, as well.
     
  13. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader

    WB-06 - Fermentis

    I am trying to add some Belgian esters to a non-Belgian beer. Trying to see how it plays with an IPA recipe so I don't want to go full blown ferm with the strain hence the S05 backup.

    This is kind of my hope...without killing my whole beer
     
  14. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    You didn´t mention what was your beer OG yet, I think it could be a risky experiment but it´s fine if you like to take the chance. I would continue with it raising fermentation temp to 72 F to try to speed things up before any bad bug could have a chance to contaminate your beer.
     
  15. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader

    OG - 1.060

    I'll check it out when I get back and maybe take a gravity to see if anything has happened and will decide whether to go with the S05 at that point or get brave for another 24.
     
  16. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Give your fermentor a good shake today.
     
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  17. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Um... WB-06 is Bavarian wheat, not Belgian. Just sayin'. It would generate more banana fermented warm in the 70s, I would think, and maybe some bubblegum if you're lucky. Fermented cool, it should be more clovy.
     
    Drel likes this.
  18. Drel

    Drel Zealot (690) Nov 14, 2014 Massachusetts
    Trader


    Yep you're right I have no idea why I said that. I am looking for the bavarian esters like banana/bubblegum. Sorry for newb status, very embarassing. :flushed:
     
  19. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Some strains have esterase enzymes that are more active at lower temperatures. They just don't fall in line with "normal" metabolic processes, but strain to strain variability is pretty wide in S. cereviciae.
     
    MostlyNorwegian likes this.
  20. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    While you can. Take some aggression out on that thing and give it a good what for.
     
    Tebuken likes this.
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