Using Kveik to make Quick "Lagers"

Or in colorado...
Insert cool Bierestadt picture....

 

that’s a very general term in regards to lagers. I would say the most popular are light clean and crisp. At least the ones in the us. And most beer consumers are not aware of the huge portfolio of lagers that are not light, and crisp. I will say that lagers do tend to be drinkable in General. Even if they are heavy on malt flavors they don’t seem to be as sweet as most ales. Love dunkels because they are full flavored, easy drinking and you get that nice rich malt flavor without being sweet.

 

A guy in our homebrew club made a faux Märzen using a Kviek yeast (Voss?) fermented quiet warm and under pressure. This beer was fairly young when I tasted it. The first sip was a surprise, it tasted closer to the target than I expected. On the second sip I picked up on an ester that was out of style. The beer was very drinkable, but wouldn't have won a prize in a competition.

 

Perhaps I am weird here, but I am having a more negative reaction to the word Nordic than lager. I am more bothered by the implication of origin than playing fast and loose with beer terminology. The inclusion of "lager" helps make it a one-two punch.

 

The whole "lager beer" thing in the US has been around for awhile.

 

Instead of Nordic lager can we call it Viking Farmhouse?

 

LOL!

Commercial breweries will 'label' beers anyway they think will inspire their customers to be motivated to buy their beers.

It would be my personal preference to not 'create' new beer styles since more often than not I find them to be confusing but businesses will do what they do since it comes down to two things:

• Its all about the Benjamins
• Craft beer consumers seem to continually seek the 'shiny new thing'.

A win-win situation!?!

Cheers!

 

Ha!

 

Lagar the Horrible

 

I'll try to explain (but this isn't an attempt to convince). I think we put a bit too much emphasis on ingredient origin with beer styles (and not enough emphasis on beer culture). If a brewer in Pittsburgh makes a barley wine with Norwegian yeast, American barley/malt, and New Zealand hops... and it doesn't resemble a beer type from Norway... is it appropriate to say the beer is a Nordic-style barley wine? If a Canadian brewer uses sake yeast to make a porter, is it appropriate to say they've made a Japanese porter? What if a bunch of Canadian brewers all made porters with strictly Japanese ingredients (besides water) and imitated each other rather than any beers from Japan... would these beers be a new beer style called Japanese porter? I understand why beer fans might find it OK or desirable to answer "yes" to these questions... and this isn't a black or white scenario, but personally, I don't think it's appropriate in the context of beer styles.

 

Chris, I wonder if this is a "beer fan" thing vs. a commercial brewer thing. It seems to me that commercial brewers are the 'culprit' here in defining new beer styles in order to present to their customers the next 'shiny new thing' to get them excited to buy.

Cheers!

 

It's probably rare that something embodies this in such an extremely unbalanced way - hence my strong reaction in this thread. One example with some similarities is when American brewers state they've brewed a "French saison." This term caught on because American brewers started to employ a Wyeast yeast sold as "French saison" and the brewers sometimes described their beers as such. The Wyeast yeast was supposedly derived from the Thiriez house yeast. Thiriez is a French brewery located by the border with Belgium. The brewers at Thiriez and some others believe that the Wyeast yeast is no longer the same as Thiriez's. Thiriez sourced their yeast from a collection in Brussels. They wanted some "Belgian" character in their beer to deviate from what they saw as the more traditional French approach. I assume they use this yeast in their blondes, IPAs, porters, etc. They don't brew a beer that they market as a "saison" on the label, but they do have a beer that they market as a "blonde" that was inspired by English bitter that they consider a saison as well. It's not their big seller in France.

Some Americans seem to believe that the Wyeast yeast is a "French saison yeast" (which is an obvious conclusion based solely on the Wyeast name), and a beer made with it therefore becomes a "French saison." At times people will look to the differences between a beer made with this yeast and a beer made with Wyeast's "Belgian saison" yeast to explain the differences between a Belgian and French saison. That might seem completely logical to some, but to me it is an artificial exercise. Are these the only conditions one needs to think that there is such a thing as a French-style saison... and that it is distinctively imitable from the use of this yeast? Is the Wyeast yeast a French yeast? Is it a saison yeast? Is there a beer style in France that the people there recognize as a French-style saison? If so, do the American beers closely resemble them? How many beers have US brewers had that are marketed in France as saison? If any, what yeast do they use?

If such things are distortions, I believe they can actually become reality. If new French craft-inspired brewers start to use the Wyeast yeast or the actual Thiriez yeast and produce distinctive "saisons" due to American inspiration (which might be happening), does it add to my argument or negate it?

I realize I might look too sensitive on the matter... but I'm not on BeerAdvocate to only tell people what beer I'm drinking now (no offense to those who are). People uninterested in such ramblings have hopefully learned to skip my posts. BTW, if there is some sort of unique brewing history of people in Norway brewing beers with Kveik in the same manner as the US brewers and calling them lagers, then I'd happily take back my negative comments on the matter. (that might sound silly but I mean it)

 

Chris, figuring out the 'origins' of yeast can be a very complicated thing. It is possible that what was the beginnings of Wyeast 3711 was at the time sourced from Thirez (a specific bottle of Thirez beer in the year 19xx) but the beers that are now brewed at Thirez are fermented using a differing yeast strain(s).

In my opinion there is no difference between a Belgian Saison and a French Saison. What is the main motivation for an American craft brewery to label a beer they produce via "French Saison"? In my opinion it is a marketing decision to advertise their produce as being a different sort of thing.

As I discussed above it is a possibility. The folks at Wyeast know the 'answer' here.

I have homebrewed with Wyeast 3711 a couple of times and I can answer that it is indeed a Saison yeast strain - it is POF+ and is able to process complex sugars resulting in a beer with a very low final gravity. You can read more here:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Saison_Beer

Not that I am aware of but maybe some BAs from France can chime in here on that topic.

And in my opinion that is a genuine concern. In a similar manner I have a concern that when a brewery produces a German Pilsner where they choose to dry hop with a noble hop they could label this beer as a so called 'Italian Pilsner' while it really is just a German Pilsner.

I suppose consumers who desire to continually drink 'new' beers would prefer that more and differing labeling/branding be employed but like you I view these things as possible distortions.

Cheers!

 

Troegs made a beer they branded as French Style Saison as part of their scratch series. Below is from their website (with emphasis in bold by me):

“French Style Saison

Scratch Series

6.5% Abv

18 Ibu

Scratch Series: 227

Malt: Oats, Pilsner, Red Wheat

Hops: German Northern Brewer, Saaz

Yeast: French Saison

Scratch #227 represents our interpretation of the classic Saison style. This once near-extinct ale was brewed in farmhouses during the winter months and stored until summer, when it was served to the seasonally working farmers. (Hint: “saison” translates to “season” in French.) Keeping with a French theme, we use a strain of French Saison yeast to enhance the mouthfeel, which lends a rich, silky texture and dry, champagne-like finish. The result is a mouthwatering Saison with a tangy citrus zing, sweet malt backbone, and contrasting peppery spiciness. À la vôtre!

Availability: draft & growler fills; Anthology Spring sampler packs.”

https://troegs.com/beer/french-style-saison/

They decided to brand/market this beer as a “French Style Saison” since they chose to use the French Saison yeast strain to ferment this beer.

Cheers!