Warm/Pressurized Fermented Lager Experiment

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I'v been fairly critical of Brulosophy experiments, mainly because of the misleading words they use to accompany the statistical results of triangle testing.

    But interestingly, here's an unusual experiment where they sent finished beers to a lab to GC test for esters/ketones.

    http://brulosophy.com/2020/07/30/ex...-at-ale-temperature-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/

    It's one data point, but personally I'm not at all surprised the lab found elevated esters in the warm/pressurized "lager" vs the cold fermented lager.
     
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  2. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (260) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I would have preferred to see this exbeerament done with both fermenters under pressure. I am not surprised by the results as most yeast strains throw higher esters at warmer temps.
     
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  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Presumably, the difference in esters would have been even more pronounced, because pressure is known to suppress ester production.

    What they were testing was the idea that ester reduction from fermenting under pressure can exactly offset the otherwise increase in esters from a higher temperature. It's a favorite technique of the instant gratification crowd.

    Indeed.
     
    #3 VikeMan, Jul 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,654) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Jim,

    At HomebrewCon 2019 Fermentis gave a presentation where they fermented with W-34/70 under varying conditions including warm temperatures (i.e., 20 °C – 68 °F).

    On chart number 20 they summarize:

    “Ethyl hexanoate and Isoamyl Acetate the most important esters produced by W3470 –but in all conditions, at a minor impact on flavor expression.”

    The measured data is provided in previous charts.

    You brew a lot with W-34/70. Have you ever fermented warm with this strain? Have you noticed that warm fermentation still results in beer with suppressed levels of esters?

    Cheers!
     
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  5. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Devotee (407) May 2, 2006 Utah

    I recently brewed two beers fermented at about 65 F with 34/70. One was a German pils, and the second a more amberish, hoppy beer. To my taste buds, both are very lager like. Cheers!
     
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,654) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Mark, thanks for that report. It certainly confirms the data/information that Fermentis presented at HomebrewCon 2019.

    Cheers!
     
  7. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (312) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    @VikeMan

    Call me a traditionalist but that’s not a real lager. If I can taste esters in a Pilsner or lager I’m gonna call it an ale no how long it was cold stored. If I wanted instant gratification I would just go by a German commercial lager since they do it better than me anyway.
     
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  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I should make it clear that the yeast in the Brulosophy experiment was Wyeast 2124, not Fermentis 34/70. The latter does seem to be reasonably well behaved at high-ish temps. A local brewery makes very good lagers with it at about 60F. But in my experience, 34/70 is the exception to the rule.

    (Yes, I know 2124 and 34/70 are sometimes claimed to be the same strain. I'm not so sure.)
     
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  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,654) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Earlier this year I corresponded with Kristoffer Krogerus (suregork) and he informed me that WY2124 and W-34/70 are genetically not the same yeast strain.

    Cheers!
     
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  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,826) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    I saw that, I also attended the presentation at HomebrewCon. In that, they showed that the esters increased, but were in the worst case at or below threshold.

    I need to look at Brülosphy's study again.
     
  11. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (234) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    2124 is very close to.... WLP029 Kolsch, which is actually not an “ale” but pastorianus bred to ferment kind of warm. And neither have much to do with W-34/70, which is closest to WY2035, and fairly close to WLP810, which interestingly is also bred to ferment relatively warm.
     
    #11 dmtaylor, Aug 3, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  12. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,826) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    The yeast genome project has resulted in science invalidating all of the equivalencies we read for years. I've done a reset on what yeast may or may not be equivalent. Suregork's blog is a great resource.
     
  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    It sure is.

    One small caveat about his genome tree... I wouldn't rely too much on how close each strain in a tight-ish clade appears to another strain in the clade, compared to how close it appears to yet another strain in the clade.

    There was this Dunham Lab study...

    https://www.biorxiv.org/sites/all/l...v/early/2020/06/29/2020.06.26.166157.full.pdf

    ...which produced a tree of the "chico" and closely related strains. Some of the strains' relationships shuffled out a little differently than on Suregork's tree. When I asked about that, Suregork said that the Dunham study used high(er) quality sequence data and is more accurate for the strains in question.
     
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  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,826) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    I'll spen
    She presented at HomebrewCon in Portland. That was early studies with PostDoc Brewing. The owner repitches often, and they were looking at drift with generations. They compared 1056 to 001, not the same. Bell's house strain is in this paper, so I will give it a read.
     
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  15. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (260) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Hi Jack! The highest temp I have fermented with this strain was 66 ambient in an Altbier. It was very clean. This was before my fermentation chamber. However recently I fermented an APL with S-189 at 65 degrees ambient that is very clean. If there are higher esters the late hop additions are covering it up. Take care!
     
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