Water chemistry variability

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by wspscott, Mar 20, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    So I finally got my water tested after relying on a couple older tests that I found on HBT.

    There appears to be a lot of variability in my local water. Is this something I should "worry" about? Should I do another test in 3-6 months and go with averages? Should I think about a RO system? Is there an easy/cheap way I could get ballpark estimates of at least Cl and SO4?

    I should note that I have been less than pleased with the last couple PA/IPAs that I have done. Seeing this water makes me wonder if the sulfates have dropped over time relative to a couple years ago.

    Any advice or comments? I'm already drinking a homebrew and I feel pretty relaxed :slight_smile:

    Here are the reports (most recent first).

    March 2014
    pH 7.8
    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 527
    Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.88
    Cations / Anions, me/L 6.8 / 7.0

    Sodium, Na 68
    Potassium, K 2
    Calcium, Ca 57
    Magnesium, Mg 12
    Total Hardness, CaCO3 193
    Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
    Sulfate, SO4-S 12
    Chloride, Cl 131
    Carbonate, CO3 <1
    Bicarbonate, HCO3 149
    Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 122

    ***************************
    July 2013
    pH 7.1
    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 167
    Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.28
    Cations / Anions, me/L 2.6 / 2.5

    Sodium, Na 9
    Potassium, K 2
    Calcium, Ca 25
    Magnesium, Mg 10
    Total Hardness, CaCO3 104
    Nitrate, NO 3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
    Sulfate, SO -4S 14
    Chloride, Cl 24
    Carbonate, CO 3 < 1
    Bicarbonate, HCO 3 53
    Total Alkalinity, CaCO 3 44

    ***************************
    August 2007
    pH 7.5
    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 326
    Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.54
    Cations / Anions, me/L 5.6 / 5.4

    Sodium, Na 18
    Potassium, K 4
    Calcium, Ca 51
    Magnesium, Mg 26
    Total Hardness, CaCO 3 236
    Nitrate, NO 3-N 0.3 (SAFE)
    Sulfate, SO -4S 49
    Chloride, Cl 19
    Carbonate, CO 3 < 1
    Bicarbonate, HCO 3 112
    Total Alkalinity, CaCO 3 92
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    With that kind of variability, I wouldn't use an average. Not of I was serious about optimizing water.
    IMO, the variability in these reports, even in the last two (less than a year apart), is a good reason to consider building from RO or distilled. You could try figuring out seasonal variation, but I think that's probably a crapshoot.
     
  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Do you regularly test your mash pH? There is indeed importance to ensure that you have minerals like Calcium, Magnesium, etc. in proper amounts the issue of highest importance is maintaining a proper mash pH. If your water varies such that you have difficulty ensuring a proper mash pH than an alternative approach of using RO water and then ‘building’ your water is something to be considered.

    Cheers!
     
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I would go with RO water.

    If not that, TDS meters are cheap, and could tell you when things have changed.

    What is the source of the water? River?
     
  5. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    This is reservoir/surface water (I think they also draw from the Kentucky River for some locations) so I expected some variation, but not this much.

    @JackHorzempa I have used the Ph strips (I know, they suck) and it lines up with both @VikeMan and Bru'nWater estimates. That is one reason I was surprised to see this much variation.

    @hopfenunmaltz A TDS meter would just tell me that things had changed, but not what had changed. Is this correct?

    @VikeMan I had originally thought about trying to figure out if there was much seasonal variation, but the two oldest reports are from July and August and they are night and day different. Not to mention the number of reports I would have to pay for, might as well buy a RO system.

    So, what do you all do for RO water? An in house system? Just go to the store and fill up jugs from the machine? I do a mix of 5 and 10 gallon batches so I can't imagine wanting to fill from a machine. Any suggestions?

    and thanks for the feedback
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I use grocery store distilled water jugs. I'm sure it's more expensive in the long run than buying an RO system. But each time I brew, the latest marginal cost is cheaper. :slight_smile:
     
  7. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    I take 2 5 gallons carboys to the local big-box store and buy 10 gallons of RO water for each batch. $3.70.
     
    hoptualBrew likes this.
  8. cfrobrew

    cfrobrew Initiate (0) Oct 9, 2012 Texas

    Do you build up your water different for each brew? What does it usually look like for you to dr up your ipa water from store water?

    Ive been using filtered water and 5.2 stabilizer because I haven't had time to read up on water and get an understanding I like.
     
  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    TDS tells if there is a change, not what Changed.

    I might get one as a QC check for the RO I buy, to see of the machine is working properly.
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Yep.

    For IPAs, generally lot's of Gypsum and a little bit of CaCl2. I'll post a real life example after I get home tonight.

    My understanding is that 5.2 is a little bit useful under some very specific conditions, but will not magically bring every mash (or even most mashes) to 5.2.
     
  11. spartan1979

    spartan1979 Pundit (946) Dec 29, 2005 Missouri

    I've been thinking about an RO system. The last time I brewed, we had a water issue and I had to buy water. It also varies during the year since they use different sources. At least I'll know what I'm starting with.
     
  12. cfrobrew

    cfrobrew Initiate (0) Oct 9, 2012 Texas

    Agreed, Im not real pleased with the idea of using it but its been pretty ok so far.
     
  13. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    a carboy will fit in a RO machine? I have never really paid attention, but I thought they were designed for gallon jugs.

    Note to self: pay more attention :slight_smile:

    thanks again everyone
     
  14. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    So basically you buy a bunch of individual gallon jugs each time you brew or do you stock up. I could have my wife buy a couple gallons every time she goes to the store and then I would not have to deal with this :slight_smile:
     
  15. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I do the same as VikeMan...I purchase distilled water from the grocery store, at a cost of about $1 per gallon. I generally just grab 4 gallons each time I go to the store, and more if I need it.

    I build a different water profile for each brew. There is some seasonal variability with the water here, I'm sure, but cutting my water with about 50% distilled is helpful. When I build a water profile I just don't go to extremes, and doing so has not hindered my end product at all (it helps that Minneapolis water is pretty soft). If you want to build a water profile that is going to be close to extremes, say Burton, then you should be using 100% Distilled/RO.

    As for RO equipment, I did a bunch of research and came to the conclusion that the cheaper 3 filter systems that you add to your tap are basically garbage. If you want to go RO, and have reasonably consistent results, you'll need to shell out some cash.
     
    wspscott likes this.
  16. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I'd like to say I plan ahead, but really I usually pick up as many gallons as I'll need the night before my brewday.
     
  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    My water for the APA IPA used 4.5 gallons of distilled water in the mash, with 8g Gypsum and 2.7g CaCl2, to hit 5.55 pH. No acid additions. No salt or acid additions to the mashout (no-sparge) water (4.39 gallons of distilled).
     
  18. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Without pouring over your numbers, how "variable" IS your water? Is this on the key parameters? No two reports will be identical, but consider whether you really need to sweat it or not.

    One thing I know (from talking to a professor at school who knows water) is that municipalities often change the sanitization method from chlorine ot chloramine, and most use some amount of chloramine at least part of the year. Because my local water makes great beer, I haven't delved into water chemistry too much (I have enough calculations to do at school). However, I do add a bit of a campden tablet each time to guard against chloramine water, just in case they do use it.
     
  19. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Pooh-Bah (1,841) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The ratios of the various minerals to each other are pretty consistent for the most part, so total hardness test strips would give a decent approximation of where your water is at on a given day. If you feel geeky, you could get several analyses and chart each mineral vs. total hardness; eyeballing will probably be good enough. Then you could add an appropriate amount of RO/DI water, salts and/or acid for the particular brew.
     
  20. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    When @hopfenunmaltz and @VikeMan both say go with RO I'd say that it is probably worth considering :slight_smile:

    The most obvious variation is the SO4: 12 and 14 over the last year but 6.5 years ago it was 49 (multiply by 3 for water calculations). So when I started brewing I had pretty solid water for APA/IPAs, now not so much.

    I use sodium metabisulfite for the chloramines, so I don't worry about that.

    I had not bothered with water because I was pretty happy with my beers up until about a year ago. I brew a lot of hop forward beers and something seemed to be lacking.
     
    skivtjerry likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.