What Conditions define leaving Neutral Feedback?

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by Beer_Economicus, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana
    Trader

    Recently there was a thread in the Bad Trader (BT) subsection of the trading forum.

    In that thread, the OP indicated that their trade partner - after agreeing on the trader terms (including when to ship) - never responded again. This caused some scare, and caused OP to try to retrieve their box before it could be delivered. OP could not, but fortunately the trade partner's box to him did arrive (although a couple days late, I believe).

    Even after repeated attempts, no communication was received from the trade partner.

    This begs the question, should this warrant positive feedback (with perhaps a comment about communication), or does this warrant Neutral feedback?

    Those that have responded in the thread appear to be split. So, we (all) are very curious where the community stands on Neutral feedback. It seems as though many traders are keen on leaving positive feedback even when there are problems.

    What conditions (for you) necessitate leaving Neutral feedback?
     
  2. 7irondave

    7irondave Devotee (487) Jun 22, 2016 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Generally I’ll click positive if I received the decided upon beer. I would probably do the same here but would comment on the lack of communication

    Each case can be and is different though. Were there other comments in his trade history that could raise a red flag? Did he have less than 10 completed trades? I try to avoid trading with anyone that even gives off a hint of a red flag. It’s just not worth it. I have learned my lesson

    Did the ‘bad trader’ give his side of the story? Real life get in the way? Was the OP in that thread vague in his communication?

    Either way, I’d support a decision either way as far as neutral feedback goes in a situation like that.
     
  3. MattOC

    MattOC Disciple (319) Jan 13, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I'd support either and I can see people's reasoning for choosing one or the other.

    It's a tough call for me. I hate that even with poor communication noted that all people would see is the good feedback rating-"Green", all good. Communication is king for me. I'd rather get bombarded with messages from a trade partner than a few/none and or reading messages and ignoring them. That's the worst.

    However, if I put "Okay", I can still say, all parameters of trade met and completed, but know this trader is horrible with communication. Specifically, they didn't even let me know the box arrived, read and ignored messages, etc.

    This speak's to Todd's message about on the Feedback System page: "What stood out about the trade? Were there any issues? You only have 140 characters to use, so make sure that you're feedback is honest, concise, and helpful to the trader and others. You can edit your feedback too."

    I think people should be cautious trading and do their due diligence with a prospective trader partner's feedback. I check everybody. Even if I see 100%, I'll check their last 5-10 trades over a time frame and read the feedback. Hell, I have an "Okay" and it pisses me off to this day and I'll never trade with that person again, but someone might not know that unless they check my Beer Trading Stats.
     
  4. dwmetsfan13

    dwmetsfan13 Initiate (174) Jul 22, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    In my mind, trade feedback answers two questions:
    1. Were all of the agreed-upon terms and conditions of the trades met (barring some crazy extenuating circumstances)?
    2. Would you trade with this person again?
    If the answer to both is 'yes', it's clearly good. If the answer to both is 'no', it's clearly bad (or a ban). If the answer to the first is 'yes' but the second is 'no', then I think that falls in the gray area that includes neutral feedback. A few examples I can think of (ranging from closest to bad to closest to good):
    • A "Bad Trader"? thread is required to make the trader follow through (although I'd be OK giving this bad feedback as well)
    • The trade has to be cancelled after one trader has shipped because the other trader 'accidentally' drank one of the bottles to be traded.
    • The trader goes MIA after one of the people has already shipped (like this case)
    • Extras are agreed upon and the trader sends 4 month old shelf IPAs that available locally to the other trader
     
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  5. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,102) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Understand all the perspectives here. OP got the agreed upon beer in a timely manner, that is the most important thing. There have been far worse situations than this where there was a lot of debate on leaving less than good. This was never a bad trader situation. Less then stellar communication, definitely. I would leave good feedback and note the lack of communication. If people don't read the feedback for a person because it is 100% and all green, that is one them and the feedback system, not on OP for rating this less than good.
     
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  6. Joplamp

    Joplamp Initiate (140) Apr 24, 2016 Michigan
    Trader

    It’s always hard to figure out the difference based on parameters people set. If you look at it plainly by the words, how would you feel after this interaction? I wouldn’t say I’d feel “good” or “bad”. I’d be somewhat indifferent about the person and move on, never to interact again. You get your beer, it’s not “bad”. After that it depends on how you feel.
     
    Thirst_trappist likes this.
  7. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Initiate (151) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    If you were to think about trading in the future with the trader who went incommunicado, would you not want some indication that they have had issues with something pivotal to trading (communication) in the past without having to read all of their “positive” reviews (which you would have no reason to peruse if their approval was a clean 100%)?

    The answer is probably “yes,” right? That being the case, it’s difficult for me to imagine that a “positive” feedback is appropriate here. Otherwise, what is the feedback tool and percentage for?... because it’s utterly useless to future traders if the trader in question has 100% approval.

    Why not let someone see that 95%, go to the reviews, and decide for themselves if it warrants further attention?
     
  8. Leftofthedial

    Leftofthedial Disciple (377) Nov 17, 2011 California
    Trader

    Here are 8 hypothetical scenarios where I would leave neutral feedback. Some may be a little over the top but I think you’ll get the picture:

    1) I’m doing a trade during the summer or winter and don’t want my box sitting in a hot/freezing cold warehouse over the weekend. I specifically and clearly ask them to ship Monday or Tuesday so it does not sit in a warehouse. They ship Wednesday and it sits in a warehouse over the weekend. The box makes it over alright but I worry that the beers might not taste as good due to the extended weekend extreme temperature exposure. Neutral feedback.


    2) The trade is my rare and pricey bottle for their rare and less pricey bottle plus a few fresh local IPAs of their pick to even out the $4$. I receive their box and it’s their rare bottle plus two bottles of Stone IPA. Neutral feedback.


    3) The trade goes smoothly and I extra them a Saison Bernice. Upon receiving my box the guy tells me to “go eff myself” because apparently he had Saison Bernice listed in his Gots already and I should have checked and extra’d him something he doesn’t already have. Neutral feedback.


    4) I send the guy a bottle of Atrial Rubicite with a tiny nick on the label but otherwise perfect condition and cellared well. Upon receiving the bottle the other trader demands I send them a new bottle because apparently they wanted to display it afterwards in their mancave and they only want pristine labels. Neutral feedback.


    5) We agree to ship Monday and the trader never ships. They apologize and mention their car broke down, and I say it’s cool if they ship the following week. The next week comes and they don’t ship. Apparently their dog is having a tooth issue, again they apologize and I say next week is cool. The next week they have a huge presentation at work, and the following week they have a big local family reunion. They finally ship a month after agreed to. After the dog thing my responses have been less of “it’s totally cool, I understand,” and more of “alright I’m sorry you’re busy but I’d def appreciate you getting my box out.” When the bottles arrive it’s all the bottles we agreed upon plus a couple of extras. Neutral feedback.


    6) I open the box and the guy wrapped his beers in socks to provide additional cushioning. And they don’t smell clean. Neutral feedback.


    7) I do a shipping trade with a guy in the same state. We lock down the trade on a Saturday 8/3. When we talk about shipping I mention if he ships Monday through Wednesday it would be preferred since I will be out of town the following week. He never ships and I tell him to hold off until I get back in town. On Thursday 8/15 I get a call from a neighbor that apparently there’s been a package on my doorstep for a couple days and they’re wondering if they should bring it inside. The guy never even sent tracking. The beers are fine but it’s a bit frustrating. Neutral feedback.


    8) IP trade. The guy is going to be in town for the weekend for a bachelor party and he mentions that we’ll figure out the specific location to meetup on Friday night. On Friday, he messages me that he wants to do the exchange at the back parking lot of a strip club. I tell him I’d strongly prefer really anywhere else and he mentions that it’s the only place he’ll have time for the trade. He tells me not to be lame and back out of the trade. I begrudgingly agree to meet him and I get all the agreed upon bottles but the whole meetup is uncomfortable and awkward. Neutral feedback.
     
  9. sjguglielmo

    sjguglielmo Initiate (63) Aug 26, 2009 Minnesota
    Trader

    Thanks, @Leftofthedial, for these great and comprehensive thoughts about when Neutral feedback would be appropriate! I wonder about this very first one you listed. I've heard many people worry about this before, but do you (or anyone else) know if this is really warranted? That is, are the warehouses really not sufficiently heated/cooled in the cold/hot weather? Seems like this would be problematic for all sorts of legitimate items that people/companies ship, including electronics, perishables, etc.
     
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  10. Lorddevn

    Lorddevn Initiate (20) Mar 10, 2019 Wisconsin
    Trader

    Having never worked in one but interviewed for a job at UPS during my college years it was winter and I remember the doors open while loading and people dressed in hoodies, pants and gloves. They didn’t have AC or a heating system because the doors were open throughout the day due loading trucks throughout the day. Most perishable companies will send through climate controlled companies and then when close to destination they switch to ups or fedex or they ship on Monday/Tuesday to avoid the package being help over the weekend. I’m sure someone here worked at fedex or ups during their college years and could verify.

    When doing trades or sending to friends and family I tend to ship on mondays due to Incase there is a delay.
     
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  11. not2quick

    not2quick Disciple (396) Dec 1, 2015 Missouri
    Society Trader

    I feel neutral feedback should be given any time a trade is agreed upon (actually accepting the trade request) and the trader backs out or can't fulfill the trade. Trader "breaks" their bottle or their "friend drank it last night" are classic examples.

    I actually had a situation where I accepted a trade with a repeat trader. I was in negotiations with a few people. I had an agreement on a trade and was waiting for confirmation. After a few days of being ghosted, I contacted the repeat trader and told him I would trade with him. Sure enough as soon as we agreed the other guy got back to me.

    I asked the repeat trader (with my tail between my legs) if I could back out of our trade. I was open with him that the other offer was a little easier on my cellar. I told him I have no problem completing the trade with him if he insisted. He was real understanding and said no problem. I even told him to leave neutral feedback if he wanted to. He said it wasn't necessary.

    I did end up making it right and sent a surprise whale box, not expecting much in return. But of course the former trader is a stand up trader and sent me a whaley box.
     
    Beer_Economicus likes this.
  12. Junior

    Junior Defender (611) May 23, 2015 Michigan
    Society Trader

    I know you said hypothetical, but, have any of these happened to you before?
     
  13. Leftofthedial

    Leftofthedial Disciple (377) Nov 17, 2011 California
    Trader

    Haha nope those are purely fictional. Fortunately I’ve had good trading experiences and every single trade has warranted positive feedback.
     
    Beer_Economicus likes this.
  14. Thirst_trappist

    Thirst_trappist Aspirant (268) Jan 18, 2016 Florida
    Trader

    If I had to get a mod involved to complete the trade...I'd consider leaving neutral feedback.
     
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  15. dwmetsfan13

    dwmetsfan13 Initiate (174) Jul 22, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    So even in that case, you'd consider positive feedback? Out of curiosity, when would you then give bad feedback? I am assuming any cases of outright theft would result in a ban.
     
  16. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana
    Trader

    I am coming to the party (of my own thread!) a little late. Although this week was busy at work, a part of me wanted to see what everyone had to say before I chimed in as the thread starter, given that many of you probably already saw my views expressed in the BT thread.

    After reading the responses, it seems like there are two main sticking points to every trade for pretty much every person:
    • Did the box have everything agreed upon and arrive safe?
    • Would you trade with this person again?
    I wonder if making a very simple change to the feedback system could help remove some of these problems:

    Keep the feedback system as is AND add 1 question: Would you trade with this trader again? Simple yes/no bubble answer. No fuss no muss.

    Trader stats would then have 2 pieces of information: Feedback %, and A “would you trade again” %.

    Could even make the “Would you trade again %” blind to the owner if necessary.

    Tagging @Todd for his thoughts as well.
     
    sjguglielmo likes this.
  17. Thirst_trappist

    Thirst_trappist Aspirant (268) Jan 18, 2016 Florida
    Trader

    No.

    Trade doesn't get completed.