What to do with IPLs?

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by unlikelyspiderperson, Jun 3, 2020.

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  1. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    I've been adding a fair number of beers from Sudwerk to the database the last few years, they have been putting out a steady stream of heavily hopped and dry hopped lagers, some hazy some clear, and they are typically quite delicious. I've been adding them as "American Lagers" cause I don't know what else to do. They are clearly lagers, from America, says so right on the can but I can't shake the feeling that someone looking in the BA database for american lagers doesn't want a hazy, double dry hopped, galaxy bomb. I am certain this has been discussed before but I couldn't find a thread by searching titles so I figured I'd bring it up again.

    Is American Lager the best place to put beers like this for now? Is there a better category that I'm overlooking? Is the prospect of the IPL off the table for some reason?

    inquiring minds wish to know!
    Thanks
     
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  2. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Champion (800) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Trader

    I've encountered this issue a couple of times as well. While it didn't bother me as much as the whole "kettle sour" issue, I've definitely hesitated in the past.

    Personally, I go with "American Lager". It is technically a lager, it's American (and heavy-handed hopping is definitely an American trend), and there just aren't any other categories that are appropriate. It can't be classified as an ale, it doesn't match the pilsner descriptions, and there is no "IPL" category (yet). It's definitely a little strange to lump an IPL in the same boat as Live Oak stuff, or Suarez, but until an IPL/Hoppy Lager category is added to BA, my vote is to stick with "American Lager". Cheers!
     
  3. Mikemcgrath4

    Mikemcgrath4 Zealot (547) Aug 16, 2014 North Carolina
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    Seems to be a growing issue on the website. New "styles" keep coming out that don't necessarily have defined features because they are so new and some brewer somewhere came up with it on there own and then got copied. But i would think that IPL's seem to be consistent enough to be added at this point. Reminds me of back when there was no "NEIPA" category, that one took WAY too long to be added. Also frustrating is the sour question as said above.
     
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  4. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (9,009) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    No idea if an American India Pale Lager category/style will be added to BeerAdvocate but I can say that there are many examples of the IPL style in the American Lager.
     
  5. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,143) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Put them under the IPA umbrella, regardless of yeast. That's the intent in these brews.
    In fact, a lot of yeast strains that were thought to be lager strains are genetically ale strains.
    A good number of beers that could be listed as NEIPA are still added as American IPAs.
    The whole kettle sour thing throws me for a loop. Especially since they all seem to be so heavy fruited. Maybe "Sour American Fruit Beer" would be a good catch-all.
     
  6. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Meyvn (1,008) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    American Lager is the right style. If you make IPL a style you will have endless and pointless debates about weather or not beer A is or is not an IPL.
     
  7. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    This is an interesting suggestion that I definitely hadn't considered. Like you say, the flavor intent is the same as an IPA and as such the same people would be interested in them (and those people might not even glance at the american lager category since.they don't want a "lager"). Any thoughts from Mods/site personnel on this idea?

    Especially for the beers from Sudwerk that I mentioned, the intent is clearly to create an ipa-like experience and I buy and enjoy them as ipas. I have the Sierra Nevada /Bitburger hippy lager collaboration as well as a modern hopped pilsner in my fridge too and those are very clearly playing up the " hopped lager" thing. These newer class of ipls very much seem to aim to emulate the IPA (many of the Sudwerk beers are hazy with that soft/juicy mouthfeel even) so maybe that is where they belong
     
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  8. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,143) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    If it's hazy, it's not a lager.
     
  9. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    Not always true, I've had a number of Keller biers that were definitely lagers and definitely hazy
     
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  10. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (9,009) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    As I stated in a previous post in this thread, the correct style for these beers at the current time is American Lager.
     
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  11. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (9,009) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    While this is true these are not the only beers that often get added in the incorrect style (though I would venture to guess that a majority of the remaining NEIPAs that are listed as American IPAs were added to the site prior to the creation of the NEIPA style).
     
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  12. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    Thanks, I'll continue to do so. May I suggest that we. Consider changing the description for.the american lager style to.broaden it out a.bit? It currently leads with this
    Obviously not always the case and I would imagine that well see more of these hopped.lagers as.more brewers figure out the techniques
     
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  13. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (9,009) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    @Todd Can we update the style description for American Lager to include that it could be hoppy since this is the current best fit for IPLs?
     
  14. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,031) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society

    I'd rather add India Pale Lager as a style.
     
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  15. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    I think that's a better option and there should be ample options available now a days to justify the style
     
  16. kojevergas

    kojevergas Poo-Bah (9,332) Aug 15, 2010 Louisiana
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    Don't mind if you do.
     
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  17. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Meyvn (1,008) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    If you do that I think a better name would be American Hoppy Lager, AHL.
     
  18. Casterbridge

    Casterbridge Disciple (388) Mar 26, 2010 Connecticut

    Several of the ones I enjoy, such as Jack's Abby's Kiwi Rising and Von Trapp's Double IPL, fit nicely under American Imperial Pilsner.
     
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  19. Amendm

    Amendm Crusader (784) Jun 7, 2018 Rhode Island
    Society

    What to do with IIPLs........I know...I'm going to grab a 4 x 16 of von Trapp's Ipl and drink um.

    I support an IPL style category.
    Cheers.
     
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  20. southdenverhoo

    southdenverhoo Disciple (397) Aug 13, 2004 Colorado

    well that dialogue worked out nicely
     
  21. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    My only problem with using that style is it just bastardizes (more) a well established style, in pilsener. That category is fine for beers that are at least inspired by Pilseners but many that I encounter are very clearly inspired by modern american iPad and bear no relation to the concept of the pilsener
     
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  22. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,031) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society

    It's not a new style. IPLs have been around by name for well-over a decade now. It's well-established at this point and widely used by brewers and consumers. Calling it something else now would be forcing something that doesn't exist and cause confusion.
     
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  23. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (114) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    If it is really hazy, it isn't a good lager or it hasn't been lagered. See my recent posting of some New England Franconian Kellerbiers. They are from New England, not New England style Kellerbiers. They are not crystal clear but I definitely wouldn't call them hazy.

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/notch-brewing-2020.631169/page-8#post-6920934

    [​IMG]
     
  24. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,654) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society

    While I understand that a good lager is most often crystal clear, I've had a lot of hazy or cloudy Kellerbiers that were bottom fermented and very tasty.

    In fact, when I get a clear Kellerbier I'm usually a little suspicious.
     
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  25. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    I've got to agree with @steveh , the best example (for my palate) was a beer I had on tap that was from Franconia directly and it was as hazy as any hefeweiss. I don't think the Keller/zwickle style has to be super hazy but my experience is that they can be while still being high quality examples
     
  26. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    If by "really hazy", you mean turbid/muddy as in the NEIPA sense, no. But kellerbier (traditionally) is not clarified and contains some yeast in suspension, so it is typically hazy.
     
    #26 MNAle, Jun 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  27. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (114) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    None of the Kellerbiers I had in Franconia last summer were noticeably hazy. But there are hundreds of breweries there, so sadly I have not tried all of them!
     
  28. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,654) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society

    All of the Kellerbiers I ever had in Franconia were served in a clay Krug so you couldn't tell how hazy (or not) they were. :slight_smile:
     
  29. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (114) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Very true. But the Mahrs U wasn't.
     
  30. beertunes

    beertunes Poo-Bah (7,296) Sep 24, 2007 Mayotte
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    They actually are hazy, but they're not murky.

    The misuse of the word"hazy" when beers are actually turbid and murky, has folks not even knowing what actual haze looks like in a beer,

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hazy?s=t
     
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  31. beertunes

    beertunes Poo-Bah (7,296) Sep 24, 2007 Mayotte
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    Nope.
     
  32. bret27

    bret27 Champion (874) Mar 10, 2009 California
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    It seems like the original question has been addressed and likely soon to be resolved.
     
  33. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Meyvn (1,370) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    Wouldn't be a proper ba thread if a question about ipls didn't turn into a discussion about the turbidity of Franconian kellerbiers!
     
  34. bret27

    bret27 Champion (874) Mar 10, 2009 California
    Trader

    Well... while we’re at it, Sierra Nevada’s kellerweiss was amazing. But how does the German purity law figure in?....
     
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  35. EmperorBatman

    EmperorBatman Initiate (119) Mar 16, 2018 District of Columbia

    Weißbier (Hefeweizen) stands as a bit of an outsider in the German beer family. It doesn’t strictly follow the Reinheitsgebot but is an accepted style because certain breweries received an exemption by the Duke of Bavaria. And it isn’t a Franconian Kellerbier either, but a style from the urban area around Munich.
     
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  36. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Champion (800) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
    Trader

    One of us got a funny Mahrs U then. I recently discovered and picked up some cans of this, and, at least speaking of my batch, it was not a clear beer. Absolutely delicious, but I definitely took note of the lack of clarity. Maybe I got a bad batch? Maybe you got a bad batch? If mine wasn't proper, I can't imagine how great a proper batch would be!
     
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  37. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (2,871) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Moderator Society Trader

    Weißbier may not be true to the original Bavarian Reinheitsgebot of 1516, but it is absolutely true to the modern interpretation of the Reinheitsgebot and is not seen as any kind of outsider when it comes to the German beer family in this day and age. What you are refering to is ancient history.
     
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  38. Crusader

    Crusader Disciple (318) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    I've long suspected now that the haze in hazy lager beers has less to do with the lack of filtering and more to do with the expectation of the consumer that the brewery wants to meet. A visual cue that from the consumer's perspective is interpreted as freshness and a less processed product. Now, there might be factors which would produce a more hazy beer, a less flocculant yeast that remains in suspension for longer during secondary fermentation/lagering, and perhaps the geometry of the secondary fermentation vessel, say a large vertical lagering vessel. I could be entirely wrong of course, but that's my working hypothesis.

    With each step in the process you ought to leave behind more sediment, firstly during the transfer from primary to secondary, then from secondary over to packaging. If packaged in kegs and served by anstich you have a further process of settling of the sediment below the tap, unless the keg is moved around carelessly before tapping and the beer is not allowed to settle once more, whereas with a bottle any sediment at the bottom of the bottle risks being stirred up when pouring (though part of the sediment may have become caked at the bottom, and different yeasts obviously produce a looser or more compact sediment at this stage).

    But then again, why would you serve kellerbier at the keller from bottles? When packaged in bottles or cans, assuming there's still an amount of sediment in the package, it's up to the consumer to either pour carefully and get a clear glass of beer, or do the swish and pour to ensure that the last part of the sedimentation process is wasted. That's similar to rolling around the keg right before tapping, there's no historical basis for such treatment of keg beer. Even with the short aged winterbier/schenkbier the idea was to have clear beer after the short secondary fermentation (3-4 weeks, what today counts as a long storage time for lager beer, i.e the old sommerbier) and then serving it from the barrel after allowing it to settle in the tavern cellar (or the brewery cellar). Cloudy beer was historically a brewing flaw when it came to bottom fermented beer, whether schenk or lagerbier.
     
    #38 Crusader, Jun 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  39. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (114) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I guess living in Massachusetts and seeing a million hazy (murky) IPAs has affected my notion of hazy, but here is the first beer I had in Bamberg last summer--an U at the Mahrs brewery:
    [​IMG]
     
  40. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    I wish we got JA down here, I can’t remember seeing an IPL on the shelf here. We’re underwater with NEIPAS though there’s a shit ton on the shelf, and a few new WC IPAs, not an IPL I’ve seen.
     
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