What will be a classic Belgian Ale yeast ?

Michael, firstly I want to say thank you for your conscientious and thoughtful response!

I took note of: “The first time I used this yeast I wondered if they had packaged a lager by mistake.” I very much appreciate that feedback since it confirms the description that White Labs provides for WLP515.

“From someone who was used to 3787 trying to jump out of the fermenter, 515 was more than enough different to wonder if I was doing something wrong.” The aspect of “doing something wrong” could be a topic of debate. As I have already opined in a previous post: “I have an opinion that a Belgian Pale Ale should have some esters (fruity flavors) and some phenols (spicy flavors).”

So, I am still of an opinion that a Belgian Pale Ale should have some level of esters (fruity flavors) and some level of phenols (spicy flavors). My opinion on this particular aspect in not just a personal opinion, but also the opinion of BJCP, Brewer’s Association and the folks who administer the European Beer Star Award.

Cheers to you Michael!

 

You seem to be really struggling with semantics, and/or basing your opinion on what other people have wrtitten. Have you ever tasted De Koninck or Palm?

 

We have a strain available through The Yeast Bay called Northeastern Abbey, which was isolated from a producer of Belgian-style ales in the Northeast US. Seems to be on par with what you're looking for in a yeast. It is one of my favorite yeast strains in my stable, and is a great choice for lighter Belgian styles.

Cheers, and let me know if you have any questions!

 

Michael, thank you for sharing your experience with us, I was wondering if you could tell us a few things about the beers you made using this particular yeast, specifically I'd like to know:

1) Do you feel they displayed a Belgian ale (ester/phenol) character, even if mild?
2) Do you feel it's fair to characterize these beers as both "Belgian ale" in character and "almost lager like"?
3) Do you feel that the character of the beers you made is consistent with the commercial Belgian pale ale style?

Any information that you cools provide would be appreciated, thanks.

 

HB, I feel like the style guidelines were written with this beer (De Koninck) specifically on Gordon's brain at the time. Considering it is first example listed under the 16B sub-style I think that makes sense too. The bottles I've had have not always been fresh, but when they were, I can report that his recipe featuring this yeast is fairly close to De Koninck. Thus yes, I feel it displays a Belgian ester, vaguely citrus. I haven't gotten pear like the guidelines mention. Phenols have been hit or miss, and been lost in the Saaz or Liberty or Styrian Goldings I've added to every batch (7 small tweaks totaling 10 batches at last count). I've detected no clove, only hints of pepper, and by the time it was cold conditioned I would say whatever is left blends well with the hop character. Outside of very fresh, no - I would not call it phenolic.

obviously you're about the last I'd need to say this to, but since others may be reading this - the "style" exists somewhere on a continuum, rather than on a specific point. This yeast makes a cleaner beer than some other Belgian pale ales that are considered good examples but 3) yes, absolutely is consistent with some classic commercial examples.

2) is "almost lager like" AND "Belgian" fair? considering the strength of the yeast profile from almost every other family of Belgian beers I could argue that it is at the very least confusing to a new brewer. But yes, I believe it is fair. The Belgian character is subtle, but there, and subtlety and balance are important to these beers.

have a good evening--
--Michael

 

As a homebrewer I am attuned to the BJCP style guidelines but I also pay attention to style guidelines from other organizations such as the Brewer’s Association (BA) and the EBSA.

Below is the description of Belgian Pale Ale from the BA style guidelines:

"Belgian-Style Pale Ale
Belgian-style pale ale is gold to copper in color. Chill haze is allowable at cold temperatures. Malt aroma is low. Low caramel or toasted malt flavor is okay. Belgian-style pale ales are characterized by low but noticeable hop bitterness, flavor, and aroma. Noble-type hops are commonly used. Low to medium fruity esters are evident in aroma and flavor. Low levels of phenolic spiciness from yeast byproducts may be perceived. They have a light to medium body. Diacetyl should not be perceived.
Original Gravity (ºPlato) 1.044-1.054 (11-13.5 ºPlato) ● Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato) 1.008-1.014 (2-3.5 ºPlato) ● Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 3.2-5.0% (4.0-6.0%) ● Bitterness (IBU) 20-30 ● Color SRM (EBC) 6-12 (12-24 EBC)"

Nothing in the above BA description reads: “clean, lager like” to me.

Cheers!

 

Michael, thank you for your input. The point I've been trying to make that's been beaten down with a semantic stick is that beers do exist along a continuum, and there are certainly ales that are "lager-like" (a beer does not have to be COMPLETELY DEVOID of esters to be reminiscent of a lager), but still retain some of the characteristics of their parent styles. Again, the two examples that come to mind are Belgian pale ale and golden bitter, beers that are much cleaner in character than most other Belgian ales or bitters, and are therefore lager-like, yet retain some of the characteristics of their respective styles. Also, while personally I am indifferent to "style guidelines" and certainly have nothing against them, I do think they need to be taken for what they are and kept in context. To take a style guideline, which by its very nature is contrived, and compare it to a classic commercial example (or the yeast used to produce that example) and say "this beer/yeast doesn't fit the style guidelines and therefore is not a good example of this style" is immensely silly as it's quite simply putting the cart before the horse/the tail wagging the dog. I have quite literally heard people say things like "Saison Dupont is not a good example of the style because in my opinion it doesn't fit the guidelines"...surely you jest...

 

If you really cannot see how a low gravity, light bodied, golden Belgian beer with LOW esters and LOW phenols can be ALMOST lager LIKE then I'd suggest you buy a bottle of De Koninck and drink it.

Some people might say that steam beer is a lager that's almost ale like...*gasp*!

 

well said, as always. Suffice to say Dupont is something I aim for. had someone tell me it wasn't dry enough. Had someone else say it wasn't peppery enough. Whatever. It's an amazing and amazingly complex profile that I hope one day to find my own compares favorably to. I'm not there yet. I also make more "golden bitters" than anything that "fits" into Category 8. They're excellent.

 

There are literally 100s of Franconian Kellerbiers (lagers) that, due to the residual yeast in suspension, serving method, and young age, are almost (real) ale-like. Ron Pattinson even calls them lager milds.

 

hurrburgess, I appreciate your input but please note that this cannot possibly be correct as there's no mention in the BA style guidelines of kellerbier being ale like, and as we all know lagers are CLEAN and have no preceptable yeast derived characteristics. This is not just my opinion, but also the opinions of those people who have written the guidelines.

 

Edit - I see you said BA guidelines. Well they all miss local specialties, including BJCP, which is what I read mistakenly.

Of course Kellerbiers and many German and Czech lagers are not in the Guidelines. Black IPAs are not either. As about 1/2 of entrants into cat 23 are Black IPAs of late, they may have a sub category in the 2014 guidelines. There are few examples of CAPs brewed commercially, but it has a subcategory because so many are entered in competitions.

Yeah, I have had several Kellerbiers in the local of Bamberg, including a nice afternoon at St. Georgeanbrau, and agree with Herrburgess. How many others here and in the BJCP have that experience?

 

Good luck with your Belgian Pale Ale using WLP530.

Cheers!

 

Jeff, I have had the opportunity to drink Mahr's Ungespundet-hefetrüb on cask several times. It has a very pleasant combination of bready/yeasty/Noble hop flavors and being served on cask it has a mouthfeel that is reminiscent of a real ale. I do not perceive any esters in that beer so in that respect it is clean.

There was a nice write-up in the March/April 2014 Zymurgy: Style Spotlight: Kellerbier. There was also mention in the article on why Kellerbier is not considered in the BJCP style guidelines.

Cheers!

Jack

 

I read the reason, the style has variation, which might make it had to pigeon hole. That does not stop them from having styles like 22b. Other than having smoke, it is wide open. Commercial examples of smoked porter, smoked stouts, Spezial Lager, and smoked weissbier all in the same category. I have had most of those, and can say they can be all over the place, but they have smoke in the aroma and flavor.

Maybe 2014 guidelines will have some additions that are welcome to lager brewers.

 

“Maybe 2014 guidelines will have some additions that are welcome to lager brewers.” I would welcome the inclusion of Czech Dark Lager to the 2014 BJCP style guidelines.

Cheers!