What would i need...

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by CrossSideTop, Aug 25, 2014.

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  1. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    To brew and age a decent 10%+ RIS? I know the question is ridiculously newbish as I haven't stepped into homebrewing yet. But I'm only really interested in brewing that particular style of beer as it is something I don't have access to year round and love enough to be willing to drop the money on equipment to brew it . I know I'm begging to be crucified, but I would appreciate any serious answers. Starting from zero, what would I need and what would I need to watch out for if this is the only thing I'm currently interested in brewing?

    Sorry for wasting most of your time, thanks for any advice in advance.
     
  2. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    You would need a large enough MLT to hold enough grain to produce wort at that gravity and preferably a temperature controlled environment that would allow you to condition such a beer for (IMHO) 6-10 months before drinking it.
     
  3. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, you'd need a big enough mash tun to hold roughly 21-27 pounds of grain, perhaps.

    The ability to control your temperature and keep it low, low, low while it ferments.

    Past that... you'd have to make a really huge ass starter, or use a few packs of dry yeast to pitch enough, and then like koopa said, allow it to age for a bit.

    If you ONLY brew that, I suppose you could probably steep some grains, and do an extract batch.. But an extract beer that big.. You'd be in it for quite a bit of money in terms of the cost for extract. You'd not have to mash anything unless you had some recipe that had a bunch of different stuff in it.

    I don't know how much "+" you want over 10%, but I personally wouldn't go super high. I've got a 14% BA RIS that is a bit "warm", and it's ABV is a bit higher than I'm comfortable knockin back more than an 8 ounce pour every once in a while. A snifter full from the tap and I'm asleep.
     
  4. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    Forgot to mention that (as FATC1TY mentioned) a stir plate would really help if you don't want to spend lots of money on yeast. Also, an oxygenation system would really be useful when choosing to brew a high gravity style such as an Imperial Stout.
     
  5. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    From zero, you would need a really big bucket (6.5 gallons or higher or 2 5 gallons), a bigger kettle and way to boil the contents (you can do concentrated boils on the stove top if that is all you want to do). You will need a way to control the temperature of fermentation and the aging beer (kind of, I have an inner closet that stays 55-65*F year round). You will need enough bottles for the beer (5 gallons is about 2 cases worth). There is so much more you could get if you wanted to geek out on the hobby and brew other beers. If you simply want to brew a few Impy Stouts per year to sip on all the time, get the bucket and kettle, brew extract, get a huge pitch of fresh yeast from a local brewery (we have lots of those in OR, shouldn't be hard), and a way to control temps of fermentation, and empty bottles.
     
  6. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    You knew this was coming . . . but this is not a flame. What you are suggesting can be accomplished in another manner. Brewing isn't terribly difficult, but requires a little bit of dedicated study/effort if you want good results. You have picked a complicated style (RIS) where you will not know your results for at least six months, maybe a year. If you are really dedicated and figure out the process in 3 or 4 attempts (very optimistic), it will be 2016+ before you are drinking something you enjoy.

    I suggest "cellaring" any RIS you can find commercially. The style is perfect for extended aging. If you have a constant temp cellar/basement you have it made. If not, buy a used fridge and stock it with 300 bottles . . . you can drink one every day until your supplier makes it available again. Even if you are committed to brewing, this approach would give you something really good to drink for the first couple of years until you perfect the process. No brewers ever complained about having too much cellar space.
     
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  7. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I would piggyback on @PortLargo and state that you should have easy access to Narwhal right now, Old Raspy year round, and Ninkasi Imperale most of the year. All are great Impy Stouts that have awesome cellaring capabilities, and affordable. I over course would prefer Ninkasi be in 12ers like the other two, but that is my preference. "Crafty" or not, Widmer's KGB is really good fresh and aged as well if you can still find it around. Green Flash Double Stout, NoLi Imp Stout, Ten Fidy, all are available year round with easy access, affordable, and should age with some grace. That doesn't include the big boy's single release barrel aged series beers either.
     
  8. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    Thanks for all of the honest responses. I was expecting to get ridiculed to death for such an outlandish goal. I'd like to know the initial expenditure for the equipment necessary to produce something decent. I know that temp control is an issue. My end goal is to have access to kegs of abyss to be disposed of at my leisure haha. Is there a thread that discusses initial setups by price range? Is a kit a good way to start given my goal? What would be definites to add that aren't generally included in a kit? Again. If anyone has the time to waste pointing a newb in the right direction regarding these things I'd be in your debt and will send you a bottle of batch one regardless how shitty.

    Would love to be linked to any threads that might help me in both initial setup and recipes of the style. If there's any that cover both that'd be freaking rad.

    If you read all of that without facepalming multiple times, thanks
     
  9. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    These guys know what they are talking about. If you think the aging process that they all describe can be skipped, then I'll give you an analogy that may or may not be accurate, but it makes my point for aging a beer like this.

    If you go out and buy a bottle of any RIS of your choice, and then abuse it by letting it sit in a warm place subject to some direct sunshine, then freeze it, then thaw it and drink it, you'll likely have a very raw-tasting beer. But your freshly homebrewed RIS could be like that, and maybe extra so because homebrewing takes some skill, and errors are easy to make, especially if it is your first time brewing. But the patience to wait until your newly-brewed RIS has conditioned itself after a cellaring period is pretty darn hard to do as a novice. Ask yourself, How patient are you?
     
  10. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    Also the style I was referring to in OP was BA RIS. That's ultimately what I would like access to year round. Really I'd like to be able to enjoy ba ris on Fridays and Saturdays should I want to without worrying about drinking my last of anything.
     
  11. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    That would be the main reason for brewing. I wouldn't expect to have access to my product for a year or so. I might try my hand at other things in the meantime, but the reason I would be brewing is for the ba imp stouts. I also understand that the possibility of producing something subpar (even following every step fastidiously) is very real. I'm still quite interested in trying it right out of the gate.
     
  12. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Now you are asking a lot! :wink: Barrel-aging is something that I can't help with because I have not done it. Someone else will have to chime in on that topic, but I don't think you'll hear much encouragement to do it. We'll see.
     
  13. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    Yeah and I'm sure having such a long time between brew and payoff could make getting a quality product a lifetime endevor haha... I generally drink a couple of bombers on fridays and saturdays. I really like big beers. IPA's don't age well and I don't think I'd drink 5 gallons before regretting making it.

    I really love big BA Imp Stouts. They are by far my favorite style as well as being hard to come by.

    Let's just say that is what I want to do. I want to do it well right out of the gate, but now understand that maybe it's not the best starting point.

    I want something I can put away and enjoy occasionally. The bigger the better.

    How do I realize this dream? Where to start? What to get?

    Again thank you guys for all of the responses. I've spent WAY too much money on my cellar and want to have a good ris to drink without worrying about drinking my last [insert awesome beer here]. I'm guessing there are threads here that cover this sort of thing, I just honestly don't know where to start looking? How many of you guys started with a kit?

    seriously sorry for clogging this place up with stupidity.
     
  14. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Don't worry. Homebrewing won't necessarily help you save money. Especially if you're using extract. That will probably cost you as much, maybe more.

    Ounce for ounce you'll pay less for the beer if you're brewing all grain. But if you're trying to hit an Old Rasputin, Stone RIS or even BCBS, that's going to almost certainly be a lot trial and error. And equipment. For a big-to-giant beer, with all the cost of barley, hops and the ton of yeast you'll need, you're going to want to ferment it right. That means a fridge/freezer of some kind. Otherwise, you just might end up with jet fuel, with notes of cocoa nibs and coffee.

    Granted, you'll probably be predisposed to like yours better anyway, because it's the fruit of your labor. Ideally, you love your own kids more than someone elses...but they're a lot of work (or so I've heard. Don't have any of my own, and I've never made a huge beer).

    Start smaller. Start with a Pale Ale/Bitter/Heffeweizen/Porter/Stout. Something fairly standard. Start to understand how the process works and all of the thousands of variables that are at play.

    I started with a kit - a Brown Mild from Northern Brewer. That was my first and last kit. From there, I started making my own recipes. Looking back now, none of them came out all that great. Because I didn't really know what I was doing. Things generally improved when I made the switch to all grain, but there was still a learning curve (and a thermometer issue) that messed me up for a few more batches. It wasn't until batch #14 that I truly felt like I had a handle on it. I'd enjoyed everything I'd made up til that point (minus one drainpour. Yup. 5 gallons down the drain), but it felt more like I was just getting lucky consistently rather than planning for good beer.

    Another word of caution: big beers don't behave like 'normal' beers. You lose mash efficiency. The one time I tried to make a 10%, my extraction suffered because of the amount of grain and (insert science). It finished around 8%.

    You're dream is absolutely attainable, it just takes time. Know the process, know basic water chemistry, take a lot of notes, buy fresh, quality ingredients. Practice and read a lot. Ask questions here.
     
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  15. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah


    Then you'll be in the cost of a barrel. You can get small 5 gal barrels that held whiskey/bourbons for around $100-120 bucks. Couple that with some extract, I'd expect a RIS recipe and the barrel to push you close to the $200 mark all in.. for your first batch.. not counting equipment, that I'd say.. $200 could maybe get you started on a decent budget.

    Plan for $400-ish roughly for gear, 1 recipe, and 1 barrel.. a bit of an undertaking for what could and probably won't be a homerun your first time out.
     
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  16. DaveOrlowski

    DaveOrlowski Zealot (560) Mar 11, 2014 Wisconsin
    Trader

    Get yourself a homebrewing buddy (who should have all the gear you need). Buy yourself a fermentation bucket/airlock (~20$) and the ingredients you need ($ skys the limit). This way you will be with an experienced brewer for your first batch and will likely have a better brew. Offer to give him some brews in return for his time, propane, etc and he will probably take more care in helping you craft your brew. Do all of this and see if this is truly something you want to get into, because once the homebrewing bug bites you, say goodbye to all disposable income! haha! Best of luck OP, and feel free to send me some of this stout when you are done.
     
  17. carteravebrew

    carteravebrew Initiate (0) Jan 21, 2010 Colorado

    Do you know anyone who homebrews that could be there with you for your first couple times brewing?

    This reminds me of the scene in Breaking Bad where the guard dude who stands there and watches Walter and Jesse make meth all day shows them that he can do it too because he's seen them do it so many times. But Walter makes the point of sure, you can follow a recipe, but do you know what to do when something goes wrong?

    For example, what if you take your pre-boil gravity reading and see that it is way low and your RIS is now going to be a regular 5% stout. Do you know the possible factors that made this happen and what to do to raise that gravity to where you want it? This is just one example of many possible situations.

    I'm not discouraging this idea. I actually really like the idea of someone going into brewing to brew one style and learn to brew it well. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't put a price tag on experience (no matter how much you've read), and having someone walk you through the brew day and explain readings as you're taking them or showing you what to do when you have a stuck sparge would be really helpful for such an ambitious endeavor.

    OK, so enough of that bummer BS; here is what I recommend you need:

    - Propane Burner
    - Big kettle (I'd recommend close to 10 gallons for doing RIS because your efficiency will likely be low, not because of anything you're doing wrong, it's just common in high gravity beers, and you will need to collect extra runnings for a longer boil - look at that! I just answered the theoretical problem example; check that one off the list)
    - Another fairly large kettle (at least 5 gallons) for heating strike and sparge water
    - Mash tun (look online how to convert a cooler)
    - Good wort chiller
    - Oxygenation system of some kind
    - Stir plate or other effective way to propogate a lot of yeast
    - Some kind of temperature controlled environment (I bought a used chest freezer on craigslist and a temperature controller, total cost about $75)
    - All the other knick-knacks that are just required for any kind of brewing (hydrometer, big spoon, good calibrated thermometer, carboys/buckets, airlocks, bottles, capper, bottling bucket, auto-siphon & tubing, etc.)

    Good luck!
     
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    @CrossSideTop , for your consideration:

    · A startup kit of equipment: http://www.northernbrewer.com/starter-kit-buyers-guide/?gclid=CKnNxdCescACFVJo7Aod4nQA3Q

    · An extract kit to brew a RIS: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/imperial-stout-extract-kit.html

    In addition to the equipment kit above you will need:

    · A big pot for boiling the wort

    · A 5 gallon better bottle carboy if you feel the need to conduct bulk aging; otherwise just age in the bottle

    · 2+ cases of bottles

    · Perhaps a few other small items that are not included with the equipment kit

    · I would recommend two packets of dry yeast for a RIS

    Cheers!

    P.S. As you will see from above link your initial ‘start-up’ cost will be above $130 (the cost of the two linked items above).

    P.S.S. Brewing a RIS for your first batch will be a bit of a ‘challenge’.
     
  19. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm not sure anyone has come right out and said it, but I will. Don't brew a RIS for your first batch. Learn the basics on something much smaller and cheaper, and that you'll be able to enjoy much sooner. After you have a few batches under your belt, the added considerations for brewing a big beer won't be overwhelming.

    Every once in a while, someone will come to this forum wanting to know how they can make a kick-ass high ABV beer for their first batch. Those that do try it are generally never heard from again. I'm not saying that's the case with you.
     
  20. CrossSideTop

    CrossSideTop Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2014 Oregon

    I've decided to take the overwhelming advice and start by trying to make a stout I can enjoy. Maybe a coffee stout. I honestly don't know how to thank all of you for your encouragement and advice. I literally thought I was going to get destroyed. I think I will start out with a kit of some sort (more suggestions?). Say with a targeted initial outlay of 200 - 250 what would be my best investment? Should I start all grain? Would that even be an option at that price point? If I were planning on staying with stouts is there anything not included in a kit that would be important or even helpful? I'd hope to have some idea what I'm doing by the time I've banked away enough to drop another two hundred in, but suggestions in terms of planning would also be helpful. I know I want o do it. I know my desired end result, I'd just like to start off as safe and predictable as possible. Thanks again guys.
     
    #20 CrossSideTop, Aug 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2014
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