When did quoting secondary become acceptable trade etiquette?

If I make an inquiry about a trade post and they mention secondary values I no longer pursue creating a deal.

I trade on BA exclusively because I don't want to deal with secondary values. There are still a large amount of people that trade based on retail and to share good beer in exchange for other good beer. Just might have to dig through a bit of BS to find the right deal.

 

Totally agree. I've seen it more often and it's also been mentioned to me in a few of my trade conversations. It immediately turns me off to a trade and that trader. Especially when you present them the exact bottle they posted ISO, but as messages began they come out with, "well, secondary on that versus this is...".

 

Unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle, the good ole days of simply trading beer you had for beer you wanted to try are gone. Ignore the profiteers and look for the people who value the culture the same way you do, they are out there. The people who play the beer game like the stock market may feel some kind of reward, but I would much rather do it the way old time traders do it, far more rewarding.

 

Let me preface with the fact that I really hate it. I do not ever mention "secondary" in my trade discussions.

That said, there are very few "old school" traders out there anymore: good beer I have for good beer you have of similar desirabilities. Nowadays, the problem comes down to finding a semi-objective way to determine "values", especially with new trade partners who are new traders who we can no longer expected to trade the old way. It cuts both ways as secondary can be used to get traders who's asking for too much with their "whales" to come down. It's nearly impossible now to figure out which beers carry similar demands, even with the "Completed Trades" sub-forum.

All things considered, just like anything else in a discussion, it depends on the attitude. I'm OK continuing the trade conversation with "secondary" as *one* of the factors, if brought up without hounding at it exclusively.

 

Also, their bottle is worth "x" secondary, yours is only worth what you paid for it...

 

Secondary sucks but then its also laughable to see people try to swap shelf beers for rarer brewery only releases. I saw someone who I figured lived in a 20 mile radius of me who wanted to swap shelf beers for HF Aaron in an IP trade and complained about not getting the beer. They couldn't be bothered to drive for the beer but expected someone else to do the drive for them then swap it for beers readily on the shelf near to both parties. $4$ and availability for availability should be the best pattern.

 

I'm not sure exactly when it became "acceptable." That said, I suspect that where the secondary market used to be for those with more money than time, the demand has increased some for a number of reasons.

I spoke with the owner of a shop in Columbus, Ohio this summer. He talked to me about making it to limited released, selling those bottles (specifically, he talked about the Angry Chair IGCCS and IGCCCS), and then using that money to feed his habit (his words). Jesus. I think he mostly meant to feed his habbit at retail prices/travel for releases. -But, I'm sure a lot of people are doing this to purchase on the secondary market, since along with secondary value you'll see people sometimes say "You'd be better off selling those bottles and just buying XXX on secondary."

It's a bit frustrating. I think these same tendencies are the ones that drive people to hoard just for trading (or selling).

I think what makes it harder to get away from this quoting of secondary markets is that there are certain regions of the country and certain breweries that happen to be clustered that always command high valuations. So, a system where someone who routinely buys BL gets comfortable with BL trading for the price of a small child will always command higher value for less desirable releases. Add to this that it is the same people getting the releases every time...and you've compounded the problem.

 

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but you mentioned buying/selling and it feels like secondary quoting has really taken off exponentially recently because on FB groups many people would prefer flipping/selling bottles more than bothering to trading them. Then the few that do trade see the closed posts with the inflated amounts.
Check a Florida FB trading group as an example, 15 mins after an Angry Chair release and you'll see a $30 dollar bottle asking $120+, etc etc.

 

Unfortunately beer trading (and often beer in general) has been taken over by a bunch of profiteering shit lords. This is the reason I don't really trade any longer, and look at a lot of folks at releases with skepticism

 

I know I am quoting myself here, but...

To add to what I said earlier regarding mentality...It doesn't help that breweries are interested in (obviously) selling everything they make ASAP (hype train) and supporting the locals (understandable, but has a negative impact on valuations for us on BA). If breweries just limited bottles to 1 per person, or 1pp/day, I have to wonder what the effects on market valuations would be. I'd have to imagine that for the type of marketplace BA trading is, that more people with fewer bottles is a lot more akin to increasing supply than fewer people with more bottles. Thus, I'd have to imagine that more people with fewer bottles each would end up decreasing the value overall.

Unfortunately, this isn't common yet. It's nice to see some going this way though. It's nice to see releases stay at SP for a couple weeks, for example.

 

Hello all a few things.

Beer for beer trades with out using secondary is just not possible anymore. The best part of this is that the secondary market helps give value. It’s hard for two parties to come to equal value when they both want the best they can get.
If I want an FO and have two SP beers for trade and can’t get if done.
Why would I not sell my sp and then buy an fo they are worth the same on secondary.

 

Why would you want the absolute best you can get? As someone else put it on here-why must people try to squeeze every unit of King Henry out of a beer trade?

No doubt it feels unfair for someone to trade a KBBS for a plain old Huna, but that type of extreme is the exception not the rule.

Like so many others that have posted in this thread, I don't understand why "ballpark" isn't reasonable when people want to trade. Sometimes you "win," and sometimes you "lose" - it should all even out in the end. I don't understand why anyone needs to know exact valuation. This is not an asset. I think if you're treating it like one, then I understand less why you drink it and less why you aren't trying to just arbitrage your way to a profit.

 

If the goal is to try a beer but can’t close on a trade for it then why would I settle on something else? I could just sell my beer and use that money to buy the beer I want. Secondary is just a way to evaluate gage value. Not all beer is $4$ as the time/effort to get it needs to be taken into consideration. Money has no actual value just the perception of value. A community agrees that a dollar is worth a dollar. The secondary market is the same the community agrees that beer is worth $100 and different beer is also worth $100 then those beers are equal to each other. The secondary market is only value system a way to find if what you have is worth what someone else has and can work as a trade. I don’t profit from beer and I disagree with that mentality. If the ultimate goal is to try a beer and you can’t land a trade for it but you can buy it you have to weigh your options. Why take a shitty trade when you can just sell your beer and buy the one you want.

 

This. Absolutely this.

What I would add is, if you absolutely cannot lock down a trade for the thing you're looking for... try to set up a share. Beer has a really strong community, and the best of us love to share. Get on the forums, let people know what you're looking for, and share what you have. I've done this locally, and while traveling, and I've had some amazing beers. I didn't have to sell, and no one was worried about secondary.

When traders start talking about this, they go right on to my "do not trade" list. It all takes effort, for everyone. Half of us travel extensively to try new beers. Why should the community bear the expense of your travel? Do it for yourself, don't expect others to cover your own costs.

Little off the rails there, man - and yes, currency (at least in theory) has a precious metal backing. Otherwise, you might as well revert to barter... then again, barter not working is exactly what you're citing as the reason for secondary value. Bit of circular logic there.

 

The secondary market for beer is a market with distortion. It does not represent the actual Supply/Demand for each and every beer for a whole number of reasons. This distortion is further perpetuated by people who profit from selling beer on the secondary market, and by those that sell beer to buy beer. This artificially inflates values of sought after/limited beers above what the "beer trade" market would be because there are people trying to flip them not drink them, which is artificially increasing demand as these people are only demanding them to flip them.

If everything was available everywhere on an actual bid/call system where supply and demand actually occurred, we would not be having this discussion because that would be THE market. That is not the real market - it's the black market.

Consider where prostitution is legalized. Do you not think that there is a secondary market for illegal prostitution? There is. Consider how that distorts the market and why people would dislike that black market.

 

We-llllllll, I think you're conflating two very different things there, but in concept, yes. I'd compare it more closely to recreational weed, but this also works.