When is a ‘beer flaw’...not a flaw?

Does Rolling Rock still taste like canned corn or have they cleaned it up?

And I'll certainly agree that I enjoy a touch of diacetyl in an English-style mild or bitter. That little bit of butter can liven the caramel and give it a great toffee note. Acetaldehyde at low levels can works as well but I don't have an example; and I've never been fond of DMS myself. There is something alluring about the smell of skunked beer though, I guess it reminds me of some of my first beers.

 

Jim, it has been a looooong time since drank a Rolling Rock but according to the below linked website (2016):

“Commercial Example: Rolling Rock is a commercial beer that has DMS as part of its flavor profile.”

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/

Maybe Peter Wolfe (@Peter_Wolfe) can provide more details.

Cheers!

 

What kinda details you looking for, Jack?

 

They are definitely still flaws even if you enjoy them. Understanding why these things happen makes that pretty clear, IMO.

 

"But what happens when we enjoy them? Are they really faults?"

Boy, this is a tough philosophical topic. Who (or what 'authority') gets to define what is a flaw in a beer? Is it the folks of the BJCP? Is there an equivalent of BJCP for the beer industry?

I will respond to some of the specifics in the OP from my personal perspective:

Diacetyl

I am not a fan of diacetyl (i.e., buttery flavor). It has been over a decade since I drank Redhook ESB and I remember hating that drinking expereince. On occasion (less likely than not) I will pick a low level of diacetyl in Pilsner Urquell. I don't mind too much that low level on the occasions it is present.

Acetaldehyde

I am not aware that I ever drank a beer with perceptible acetaldehyde. For example I never drank Little Kings Cream Ale. Some folks will state that there is acetaldehyde in Budweiser but this is not the case; the lager yeast used to ferment Budweiser produces a subtle ester that is reminiscent of apple for some folks.

DMS

I drank a lot of Rolling Rock 'back in the day'. At that time I had zero idea there was an "off-flavor" in that beer. I enjoyed drinking Rolling Rock despite the presence of this alleged "off-flavor".

There are likely other "off-flavors" worthy of discussion in this thread. I will put on my thinking cap and return.

Cheers!

 

If you are permitted to provide the additional information of what level of DMS (in units of ppm?) exists in Rolling Rock and what is a typical flavor threshold for DMS.

If you can't provide the above I suppose a simple confirmation to Jim (@NeroFiddled) that Rolling Rock still has perceptible DMS and that AB has not "cleaned up" this beer brand.

Cheers!

 

Sour beer is FULL of examples. THP, isovaleric acid, butyric acid, ethyl acetate. Very unfortunately, since the public is not very well educated on these off-aromas and flavors, they are many times considered to be "normal" or things that add "additional complexity" to the beer, when they are, indeed, problematic and an indicator of contamination or poor fermentation techniques.

 

Same goes for Heineken or Rolling Rock. People get used to an aspect of the beer and that's what they want. Still makes those things faults. No accounting for taste, I guess.

 

Needless to say I had the 'pre-cleaned up' Redhook ESB. That was a looong time ago and yet I still remember drinking that one beer vividly. I was in Colorado visiting a buddy (we went to Boulder for a day visit). As I was drinking that beer in a bar I actually thought about not finishing that beer. I am not too proud to admit that I was too cheap to 'waste' a beer so compelled myself to 'power through' and finish it. I vowed to never, ever, ever drink Redhook ESB again. In fact, I never drank another Redhook product after that unpleasant for me experience.

Non-cheers to buttery beers!!

 

Let me throw this into the mix - Brettanomyces and sour beers. Just as one example, from what I've read in "Farmhouse Ales: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition" by Phil Markowski all saisons were at least a little funky historically. They were either "fermented", or "unfermented" which meant spontaneously fermented without any yeast pitched. I personally love the flavor characteristics of Brettanomyces but they're generally considered a defect unless you're going for that - but now many brewers are trying to add it back in! I guess it all comes down to what the brewer intended then, doesn't it?

 

Target for rolling rock, iirc off the top of my head, is between 60-90 ppb (not ppm), and it's usually on the lower end of that (~65-70ish). The limit for all other ABI beers is <10 ppb. The higher level is achieved via a special boiling profile since having a seperate malt stream would be really annoying. They (the ABI brewers) actually went to great lengths to "maintain the defect" and not alter the beer profile when they brewed the beer at locations other than the "glass-lined tanks of old Latrobe" or whatever it was that the bottles said.

Threshold for most people is 40-50 ppb, though some talented folks can detect it down to 15 ppb. Most things with a sulfur atom involved have thresholds in the ppb/ppt range as opposed to ppm.

 

Am I mistaken that early Redhook also had a banana characteristic to it?

And another one that comes to mind: in my opinion Harp used to be very sulphury but I don't find that any more. Someone liked it but I didn't.

 

The story I heard was that it took several batches of brewing at the Newark brewery before they got Rolling Rock 'just right' (i.e., achieved their target value for DMS). Peter Wolfe (@Peter_Wolfe) was not at AB during this transition time (2006) but he likely heard many a story on this topic.

Cheers!

 

Thanks Peter, you da man!!

Cheers!

 

Can't stand 'em, either.

I can't believe that I'm going to say this, but we've been agreeing on a lot of stuff lately, Jack. Not sure if that's a good or bad sign.

 

This type of discussion reminds me of a High School English class. One day the teacher said, "You should never use a preposition to end a sentence with." (I was also once told in an English class that "ain't" isn't a proper English word and shouldn't ever be used at all. Then I had a chance to read some Shakepeare.)

I'm also reminded something attributed to Winston Churchill (who parodied the rule "broken" by my High School Teacher), "This is a situation up with which I will not put."

So I would argue that if the customer doesn't consider it a flaw it doesn't much matter what some self appointed authority thinks. What counts is the things customers enjoy and are willing to pay for. If it ain't broke there's no need to fix it.

 

Jim, if there was some banana flavor underneath all of that butter I sure did not pick it up.

Needless to say I only drank Redhook ESB once so....

Cheers!