Whirlpool Hop Question (re. temp and IBUs)

Your recipe is going to hit the realistic maximum of ~90 IBUs. Kind of impossible to get above that point due to limitations on the solubility of isomerized alpha acids. So, if that's "over the top bitter" for you, then use fewer bittering hops. Maybe cut back to just 0.25 oz Columbus/Tomahawk.

 

It's probably more of a science than you're thinking. BrewCipher does whirlpool hop IBU calculations. The model is based on experimental data published by Mark G. Malowicki.

 

True. Whirlpool hops tend to produce an amount of IBUs equivalent to approximately the amount as if they had been in the full boil for half as much time. In other words, whirlpool for 30 minutes gives you X number of IBUs, and X equals the amount they would have given if you'd boiled them for 15 minutes. Same for 20 minutes whirlpooled converts to 10 minutes boiled, etc. It's a way to swag for those of us with antique brewing software. I love BeerSmith, but it's not the one that I have 1000 recipes housed in, so, I'm not going to switch over anytime soon.

 

This is true for one particular temperature. Malowicki's data made it possible to model for any temperature.

 

How bout moving the 5min additions to fo, that should cut back some more on the ibu's and give a bit more flavor. Question about your recipe, why the Wyeast 1318? I was thinking of also trying a NE style ipa and I had planned on using 1098.

 

You could always try a pre boil split batch with two different hop schedules. I think this one is going to fall into a no right or wrong, merely a personal preference conversation. I just did a pre boil split with both different hop schedules and yeast, Bohemian Pils and Kolsch. It wasn't too much extra time as you'd guess.

 

I've had limited experience with TH…but thought these three beer had very different levels of bitterness with Haze being fairly bitter, Green in the middle, while Julius I felt had what I felt almost no bittering hop additions. If I were to do a Julius clone, it would probably be maybe a few pellets in at the beginning of the boil more for foam control reasons…then crank with maybe two+ late addition hop charges end of boil/various stages of whirlpool.

 

FWIW, you can still bitter very heavy and get a very juicy IPA that isn't over-the-top bitter... My latest is ~200 IBU "theoretical" with 3oz of Columbus at 90/60min plus a lot of late additions (I want to say a 3oz hop stand between 155-170F) and a huge 8oz dry hop (simcoe, citra and centennial). Even used a SO4:CL ratio of around 11:1... Kegged it yesterday and it has an incredible dank, juicy quality much like many of the turbid treehouse beers. Used S-04 English yeast as well, which is a little uncommon, as most people like to stick with 05 or other clean yeasts for IPA's but the 04 gave an extremely nice quality to beer. Fermented low at 62F. 7.8% ABV with a FG of 1.013... Just make sure to use a ton of whirlpool and dry hops... My last two IPA's have both been quite juicy, even though one is far more bitter (which I like a lot more).

Photo from yesterday when I kegged the beer... The aroma out of that glass, even uncarbonated, was just unreal. Color/hazy surprised me, those dry hops did a number on the appearance!

 

My concern is how do the calculators handle late additions that are subsequently whirpooled? Example: In the OP's recipe there are three 5 minutes additions and three 30 minute whirpool additions, each giving a computed IBU. But the 5 minute additions are also whirpooled for 30 minutes, shouldn't this yield increased bitterness? Even the early bittering charge is whirlpooled (probably minimal change here). I know BS and Brewers Friend do not address this . . . how about Brewcipher? I still can't get BC to work in Google Sheets or I'd check it myself.

 

Beersmith version 2.2 included an upgrade to calculate IBUs from hop-stand additions. @koopa posted:

“If those numbers are accurate, then I'd assume the new beersmith 2.2 calculators "50% at 194F" scale = 50% of the standard 30-35% utilization. When I get a chance I'll look for more info and post an update.

UPDATE:

The 2.2 update summary says this...

"After quite a bit of research, I’ve finally added IBU contributions for steeped/whirlpool hops. If you mark a hop addition as steep/whirlpool it will now estimate the hop IBU contribution from that addition. The default is to add approximately half the IBU contribution of a similar boil time hops based on a steep/whirlpool temperature of 90 C, though you can alter that percentage in the Options->Bitterness tab."

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hop-stand-ibu-estimate.139887/

There are other good posts in that thread.

Cheers!

 

That doesn't address Port Largo's concern. I'm pretty sure he knows what you posted. Re-read his first sentence.

 

Port Largo asked: "My concern is how do the calculators handle late additions that are subsequently whirpooled?"

I responded in two ways:

• "Beersmith version 2.2 included an upgrade to calculate IBUs from hop-stand additions"
• "There are other good posts in that thread."

As regards bullet number 2, when you go to the linked thread one post details:

"Using the Malowicki equations:

a 15 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 44.6% of IBUs vs boiling
a 30 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 47.7% of IBUs vs boiling
a 60 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 54.3% of IBUs vs boiling"

Cheers!

 

Those numbers are for hops added after the boil. They don't apply to hops that were already boiled for some amount of time before the hopstand/whirlpool, which is what @PortLargo is asking about. There is no data to do exactly what @PortLargo is asking for. I'm pretty sure Beersmith doesn't do it, and I'm very sure BrewCipher (which was doing post boil additions before Beersmith) doesn't. But I will attempt to minimize the impact of that shortcoming with a little bit of arm waving.

First, I submit that the post boil contribution from boil hops is already largely in the basic Tinseth calculation. Glenn didn't magically cool his wort to room temperature instantly, so some remaining alpha acids continued to isomerize and dissolve while the wort cooled.

Second, BrewCipher has a Hop Utilization Multiplier parameter. The default is 1.0, but the user can set it to any value. Most people will never have their IBUs actually tested in a lab, but if one's beers consistently taste (to the brewer, his friends, judges, or whoever) more or less bitter than the models indicate, the model answers can be dialed in with the parameter. The cause of the better/worse than predicted utilization isn't really important, as long as it tends to be consistent in that one person's brewery.

 

I knew Vikeman would understand.

 

A couple years back or so, I started experimenting with whirlpool/steeping hops and tried to incorporate a calculation of steeping/whirlpool hops into my overall IBU recipes. The result was beers that I found appealing in aroma and less appealing in bitterness levels. At least for my system combined with the beersmith calculations, I do believe that 1 IBU (calculated) for a 60 minute addition is more bitter than 1 ibu from a whirl pool addition. I think that I will stop considering the bitterness of steeping hops when think about recipe balance i.e., bu:gu calculations)