Belgian/French Ales White Wine Saison- AG

Discussion in 'Homebrew Recipes' started by FATC1TY, May 31, 2014.

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  1. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    White Wine Saison
    French Saison
    All Grain
    5.5 gallon into fermenter
    4.2 SRM
    29 IBU's
    90 min Boil

    72% assumed efficiency

    8.5# Pilsner Malt 75.6%
    2# White Wheat Malt 17.8%
    .5# Golden Naked Oats 4.4%
    4 oz Acid Malt 2.2%

    .5oz Nelson @ 20 -12.9 IBU
    .5oz Nelson @10 - 7.7 IBU
    1 oz Nelson @ 5 - 8.3 IBU
    .5 oz Nelson steeped at 170* while chilling

    Nelson Sauvin - 13.2% AA

    Wyeast 3711 French Saison yeast- 1 L starter, fermented at 72*, finished at 78*

    Mash for 75 minutes @ 149*, sparge and collect enough runnings for a 90 min boil.

    Pitch yeast at 70* and allow to warm to 72* to start fermentation. Finish it warm. Cold conditioned for 1 week before packaging.

    This is a very refreshing saison. Finishes very dry, crisp, with subtle spicy notes from the 3711 yeast. The Nelson hops in conjunction with the golden naked oats give a very berry/grape like aroma and flavor to the beer akin to a white wine, or white grape juice. Very nice beer in the summer!
    azurel and anteater like this.
  2. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    How did you mash at 149 and still get 3711 to stop at 1.005?
  3. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I have no idea.. I used it once before on this recipe, and got 1.001, probably 1.000 with it.

    I didn't make a starter however, as I was trying to stress the yeast out to get some esters and stuff from it. Maybe that was it?
  4. BumpkinBrewer

    BumpkinBrewer Disciple (318) Jan 6, 2010 Massachusetts

    I propose we do not lose the "Beer name:, Beer Style: tags...etc" in the beginning of the recipe post.

    Definitely like the idea of the recipe, though. I was thinking of actually using some white wine in a future saison recipe, or white grape must. But I've always been more appreciated of beers that didn't actually use the ingredients suggested in the name of the beer as you did here.
  5. Adirondack47

    Adirondack47 Initiate (0) Dec 25, 2013 New York

    Would you happen to have a mini mash/extract recipe or conversion for this one? I feel like the NS hop profile fits really well with this style.

    NZ and AU hops have started to grow on me lately (thanks to LT Limbo) but I can't say as though I've had a really good beer showcasing The Nelson Sauvin hops that have wowed me; All of the pale ales and IPA's that I've had have been....blah.

    I haven't brewed a saison yet so I'm thinking that I might be able to kill two birds with one stone here.
  6. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I don't have a recipe for it converted. If you've got Beersmith or another program, it might do it for you, although I don't know if Beersmith does a great job at converting.

    I would think you could take 2 pounds of Pilsner, and the wheat, with the naked oats and mash them at 149-150* for an hour, and then find a way to replace the pilsner malt portion with extract. You'd need 6.5 pounds of grain.

    You could use Pilsner and Wheat extract, and just steep the GNO's like a crystal malt.
    Adirondack47 likes this.
  7. Adirondack47

    Adirondack47 Initiate (0) Dec 25, 2013 New York

    I picked up all the fixin's to brew this next weekend today at my LHBS. I ran it through beersmith and i'm going to cut back on the NS hops just a bit to make the IBU's work for the style and am going to use 6# of Pilsen DME for the base malt. Im sticking with the quantity and type of specialty grains that you have listed other than the golden naked oats (my LHBS only carries flaked oats). I have a couple of questions for ya on brewing this:

    1)I'm going to steep/mini mash the specialty grains in a muslin bag; is 150 degrees for an hour still the ideal temp and time for this?

    2) Would I still need to do a 90 min. boil since i'm using DME instead of grain?
  8. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    No need for the 90 min boil I don't think. If you are shooting for my volume and gravity, and assume you are using enough DME, then I'd do the 90 min boil.

    150 should be okay for a minimash.
  9. Adirondack47

    Adirondack47 Initiate (0) Dec 25, 2013 New York

    Just cracked my first bomber of this modified recipe tonight after about a week of carbing in the bottle in my basement and all I can say is....Wow, this one is a winner.

    I ending up using flaked oats instead of GNO, Pilsen DME in place of the pilsner malt and ended up dryhopping an ounce of NS hops for 5 days post fermentation but other than that everything remained pretty much the same. Im really impressed with 3711 yeast which was done fermenting in about 6 days. I got lucky with the weather and left the carboy in my kitchen (covered with a t-shirt) and we had temperatures ranging from 60-90 which i think aided in success quite a bit. Its by far the best of the 4 batches that i've brewed thus far and the least involved to boot.

    the color is dirty straw and a touch hazy. Lots of apple, pear, grape, bubble gum, white wine and spicy barnyard funk notes in the nose and mouth and its quite dry and refreshing. Its also the first beer that I genuinely feel comfortable sharing with others and that's no small compliment because I am an unabashed perfectionist and worry wort. Many thanks for sharing this @FATC1TY its going to become a staple at my house.
    #9 Adirondack47, Sep 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2014
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  10. vrbulldog22

    vrbulldog22 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Ohio


    I'm curious to play with this. It sounds awesome.
  11. Jaysus

    Jaysus Initiate (0) Jan 16, 2003 Pennsylvania

    What does the Acid malt do for you in this recipe? Have you done it without the Acid? Thoughts on the difference if so?

    P.S. as I was reading the recipe, I kept waiting to see where you added the wine :wink:
  12. Adirondack47

    Adirondack47 Initiate (0) Dec 25, 2013 New York

    In my particular case (and what I didn't know at the time) was that it helped reduce the alkalinity in my water. The result was a marked improvement over all of the beers that I had brewed.
    FATC1TY likes this.
  13. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    The acid malt is there since the grist is so pale, you'll need it to adjust your mash ph. In larger amount it can add a slight tartness, which could.. and would be welcome in this beer.

    And no wine.. just the nelson hops that are ripe with the wine notes. :wink: It's tasty!
  14. Lukass

    Lukass Savant (999) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio

    Would be interested to try this. I've also heard of people using wine yeasts to ferment saisons. Used narbonne white wine yeast on a cider this past fall, with a nice dry, tart finish. I'd be curious to see how it would work on this style. I'll stick with your recipe though if I end up trying it. There's always room for experimentation down the road :wink:
  15. Adirondack47

    Adirondack47 Initiate (0) Dec 25, 2013 New York

    I had really good luck free fermenting 3711 with this recipe last year at this time and I think im going to try and build on that and add some oak cubes soaked in chardonnay this year. It looks like our temps are going to be in the mid 80's for the next few weeks which should be ideal.
  16. anteater

    anteater Initiate (0) Sep 10, 2012 Oregon

    This looks delicious! I recently did a french saison with citra & mosaic. For half the batch I added about 8 oz sauvignon blanc per gallon in the bottling bucket. Wine version > non wine version. I would definitely do a similar experiment with this recipe especially since Nelson is known to blend well with sauvignon blanc.
    Maestro0708 likes this.
  17. jcruz_

    jcruz_ Initiate (0) Dec 3, 2015 Guam

    @FATC1TY any particular reason for the 90 minute boil? If I'm doing BIAB could I just adjust my quantities to convert to a 60 min boil?
  18. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    Yeah I did it for using the pilsner malt and to work on my boil off ratios I believe it was.
  19. CarolusP

    CarolusP Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    I just brewed this on Saturday. The only deviation I made from the recipe was using two packets of Belle Saison for yeast. I'm 48 hours in, and this is sitting at 1.000 gravity. I also fermented on the warm side (upper 70's), so that probably played a part in the low gravity.
    Jimbob-gbr and FATC1TY like this.
  20. Jimbob-gbr

    Jimbob-gbr Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2017 Nebraska

    Post how it turns out. I was thinking about belle saison. The nelson hops sound interesting
  21. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (94) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)

    Just brewed this beer as per the recipe exactly - now I don't have any experience fruiting beers, but I have heaps of saskatoon berries (similar to blueberries) ripening up by the river near my house at the moment.

    I was thinking about racking this beer onto a few pounds of pureed sanitized saskatoons for a week or so just to give it a bit of color , a littttttle flavor, and hopefully not a lot of sweetness.

    Do you think this would be a good candidate for fruit or will the Nelson hops / 3711 conflict with a fruit addition?
  22. CarolusP

    CarolusP Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    This is the first time I've used Nelson Sauvin hops, so I'm not sure. You could always try splitting the batch so as not to risk the whole volume if the results weren't great.
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  23. CarolusP

    CarolusP Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    It's only been in the bottle about two weeks, but here it is. The Nelson hops are definitely present on the nose, but not as prominent as I was expecting. This was the first time I used RO water and tried to build my profile, so I'm guessing I probably didn't add enough CaCl or something. This is also my first time using a Saison yeast, and right now it tastes very reminiscent of a Hefe to me. It has promise.

    Thanks for the recipe @FATC1TY!

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  24. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (94) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)

    Looks delicious. Interesting it tastes like a Hefe to you.

    I ended up racking my whole batch onto about 2.5 lbs of saskatoons. The fermenter looks entirely purple, but when I pull a sample to check gravity, there is only the faintest pinkish hue, and the flavor from the berries is essentially non detectable. I think what I have here is a slightly boozier saison from the added sugar from the berries. I finished at 1.004. Cold conditioning for a few days and will bottle. I will post a pic when it is done !

    I should add my sample tasted very very VERY white wine-ish. Its so dry, it tastes like a glass of pino grigio. I can tell I am going to like this beer.
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  25. CarolusP

    CarolusP Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    Saskatoons are similar to blueberries, aren't they? I racked a mead onto blueberries last year, and their flavor was also undetectable in the final product. I'm thinking that certain berries just don't have a very assertive flavor.
  26. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (94) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)

    Yes Saskatoons are very similar - I think I would have to double or triple the ammount to get the color I wanted, which would reduce the batch size too much I think. It's funny because my hands were stained purple, and the fermenter is so dark... I'll take a picture of one in a thicker tulip glass, maybe that will show the colour - stay tuned
  27. CarolusP

    CarolusP Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    Two weeks in the bottle was definitely too early to try this beer. Here is a little over a week after the previous picture, and it's clarified a lot. The yeast dropping out has definitely caused some of those hefeweizeny flavors that I was experiencing to go away, and now it's tasting much more crisp.

    Jimbob-gbr and thebriansmaude like this.
  28. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (94) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)

    Here is the finished Saskatoon Berry edition of the White Wine Saison:



    It tastes really good. The Saskatoons turned the fermentor a dark purple, but honestly, its like it just made the SRM go up, where I was expecting the pale color of the base beer to simply take on a pinkish hue.

    The color is very nice though, and if you look at just the right angle you can see the foam is slightly pink, as is the beer. Would probably add another pound or two next time.

    Taste is great - very white wine indeed, not too sure if the berries are bringing much to the table or not, I guess that's why it would have been nice to split the batch !

    gvickery, Jimbob-gbr and CarolusP like this.
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