working on a recipe

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by JebediahScooter, Apr 27, 2013.

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  1. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    So my goal for the rest of the spring and this summer is to brew a lot. I'm a teacher and we have no big summer plans this year (usually travel a fair bit), so I'll have some time on my hands. To brew more, though, I need to drink more. Thus, session beers are on the agenda. I'm kicking things off this weekend with a "session IPA" sort of thing, starting with the Pliny the Toddler recipe with some modifications. Here's what I have so far...grain and yeast are bought, so that's locked in. Hop schedule is still not hammered down, nor is my exact process. I'm looking for something that I can knock back a few of and then still go out to dinner...big hop aroma and firm bitterness, but drinkable on the porch on a hot afternoon. Feedback welcomed:

    6 gallons
    OG 1.046
    52.6 IBU
    6.8 SRM
    4.5% abv

    4lb 4oz 2-Row (40.5%)
    4lb 4oz Maris Otter (40.5%)
    1lb Cara-Pils (9.5%)
    1lb Crystal 40 (9.5%)
    .5oz Simcoe FWH
    .3oz each, Nelson & Amarillo FWH
    .5oz each Simcoe, Nelson, & Amarillo @ 5
    1oz each Simcoe, Nelson, & Amarillo @ 0
    1oz each Simcoe, Nelson, & Amarillo DH in the keg

    Wy-1056

    Where I'm sort of hung up is my mash temp/schedule. My first thought was to maybe mash a bit higher than I normally would for an IPA to avoid a thin body, but dude at the LHBS said to go with 149*. Any opinions on that?
     
  2. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    i'll only touch the mash temp question.

    lower mash equals more fermentation equals thinner body.
    higher mash equals thicker body and may mean it is slightly sweeter.

    i'd hit 154 F and recalculate your ABV based on that
     
  3. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    The only reason I can see why 149F was suggested was the 19% crystal malt. Still seems a bit low of a temp. Maybe go with 152, drink it up, and then rebrew with an adjusted temp.
     
    skivtjerry likes this.
  4. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    i said nadda about his grains :slight_smile:
     
  5. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont



    My understanding was that Carapils shares some similar properties to crystal malt in terms of creating body and foam retention, but it does not contribute significantly to color or flavor like crystal. From Breiss:

    "Q: Should Carapils® Malt be mashed or steeped?
    A: Dark roasted malts, Caramel (Crystal) Malts and Briess Carapils® Malt (which is neither) can be safely steeped."

    and

    "Q: What is Carapils® Malt?
    A: Carapils® Malt is a registered trademark owned by Briess Industries, Inc. in the United States and Canada. It is Briess' dextrine-style malt made using a proprietary process, so it is unlike any other dextrine-style malt on the market. It imparts no flavor or color but increases foam, improves head retention and enhances mouthfeel without adding flavor or color to your beer style."

    I guess it was probably redundant to use carapils and crystal in this recipe, but my biggest fear with this beer is that it will be thin and way outta whack at 50ibu. So, I would rather err on the side of too sweet as opposed to too watery. I'm not a disciple of the West Coast IPA; rather, I enjoy a variety of hoppy beers, but one thing that I've disliked about some low-grav hoppy brews has been what I've seen as essentially a "scale down the gravity and hop the shit out of it" approach that leaves them watery and way out of balance. I'm looking for a low abv beer that hides its low abv well, which I guess is the big challenge in brewing an ale that's both sessionable and big on hop presence.
     
  6. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    And yes, it's in the plans to re-brew this one multiple times until I get it right, as I'd really like to have a sub-5% hoppy house beer nailed down for weeknight drinking and long football games come the fall. This is definitely just a starting point.
     
  7. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Here in Utah 4% beers are quite common. IMO, the best have good body to compensate for the overall lack of alcohol (Squatters Full Suspension and Uinta Cutthroat Pale Ales are two good examples). Were it me, with your grain bill I'd probably shoot for ~154 F mash temperature for about an hour (no stirring for my mashes), see what happens, and go from there.
     
  8. jlpred55

    jlpred55 Initiate (0) Jul 26, 2006 Iowa

    This is mostly what I brew but I've never had success using so much crystal in a session beer. I like the recipe but I prefer less crystal and higher mash temp in my session ales. It adds a nice mouthfeel without bombing the palate with sweetness. Id be good with half of each. And this isn't the ol' too much crystal advice, this is only for session ales which I found have a lower tolerance for so much sweetness. Seems counterintuitive but it's similar to British bitters IMO. The best bitters I drink and brew use very little crystal and are better for it. I think since you've hit it hard with flameout hops it will be in balance but may come out like sweet hop candy
     
  9. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (1,162) May 9, 2004 Missouri

    Carapils does have a flavor impact, in my opinion. It's not big and in your face, but it is there and it is noticeable, to me at least. Others may disagree.

    Regardless, leaving aside my usual hatred for that malt, I still think you're a tad high on caramel malts. I'd go toward the 150-152 range with that much caramel, or cut the carapils in half, up the base grain a little to make up the missing gravity points, and mash closer to 154. Even if you leave the malts as they are, I wouldn't drop below 152. 149 works for a regular and especially for a double IPA, where even if it attenuates a ton you're still going to have some backbone. As you are thinking, a smaller beer you don't want too thin, particularly when you're going to hop it at a high rate. I'd shoot for around a 70-74% attenuation rate, so adjust based on your yeast. With 1056, well, there ya go.

    But then again, t'ain't my beer. :slight_smile:
     
  10. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    Good stuff here to chew on folks, thanks. I'd been operating under the thinking that, since I was dropping gravity below 1.050, I shouldn't be scaling back crystal malt % as aggressively as I would if I was going from say a 1.075 DIPA to a 1.065 IPA. Carapils was probably a hasty decision on my part for fear of too thin a beer when the obvious answer sitting in front of my face would have been to have just mashed a bit higher with a tad less crystal and less/no carapils (didn't put a lot of thought into this...busy week, only had about 20 minutes this afternoon to mess around with a grainbill before hitting the LHBS before closing).

    I think I'm going to mash 150ish and hope that I don't have "sweet hop candy" on my hands, though I don't mind a little sweetness in a hoppy beer. HotD Doggie Claws fresh is one of my favorite beers, and that is one giant glass of sweet hop candy.

    Grains are milled, so the only options at this point are to proceed as planned or to swing back by LHBS and mill a couple more pounds of my base malts and make this one in the 50s.
     
  11. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    Any sense in this thinking? Mash for 90 minutes at 150-152 to try to pull squeeze some more fermentables out of the mash in an attempt to avoid under-attenuation?
     
  12. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Sounds good. Maybe next time try out some flaked grain for body instead of the carapils.
     
  13. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (1,162) May 9, 2004 Missouri


    I doubt you'll underattenuate with 1056, even with 19% crystal. The issue with that much crystal isn't so much attenuation as it is flavor. Making more fermentable sugar won't really counter that much caramel flavor. You'll just end up with a higher ABV sweet-ish brew.

    No worries, though. You're not going to end up with something undrinkable. You may find that sweetness suits your palate more than fuller body. You're going to repeat this with modifications anyway, if I read it right, so why not knock this iteration out and see how you like it. It may turn out to be your favorite of s the variations you try.
     
    AlCaponeJunior likes this.
  14. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I'll leave all the mash temps and grain bill stuff to the others. For hops, if you want a booming aroma and flavor, w/ a firm bitterness on that low of an OG, maybe consider taking your FWHs and throwing them in w/ the flavor hops, up your flavor, keep the IBUs. You should be able to get a firm bitterness w/ all your hops in the last 15 mins, and get more flavor and aroma.
     
    skivtjerry likes this.
  15. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    if time isn't on your side, you can just add some extract to reduce the % of the cara crap, i mean, cara grains
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    The OP stated: “I enjoy a variety of hoppy beers, but one thing that I've disliked about some low-grav hoppy brews has been what I've seen as essentially a "scale down the gravity and hop the shit out of it" approach that leaves them watery and way out of balance.”

    One of the ‘new’ Session IPAs is Founder’s All Day IPA. While there is an aspect to this beer that I enjoy (the hops flavors/aromas), I find this beer a bit too watery for my palate. I first rationalized this not so much from the Final Gravity being too low but the BU’GU ratio being out of whack. I just went to the Founder’s website and this beer is listed as being 4.7% ABV and 42 IBUs. So, let’s make some guesses at the Gravity Units. It seems like OG = 1.048 and FG = 1.012 (which yields an estimated 4.7% ABV) sounds about right. For this case the BU:GU ratio would be 0.875 which is a bit unbalanced when compared to the typical BU:GU for an APA (which is 0.714)

    The OPs recipe lists: 1.046 and 52.6 IBUs. The resulting BU:GU = 1.14. This value is even higher than the Founder’s All Day IPA ratio.

    It is my guess that despite the 2 lbs. of crystal malt this lower gravity IPA will taste watery since the BU:GU ratio is not balanced.

    My recommendation would be to lower the hopping to get an IBU of around 46 IBUs or even lower to achieve a BU:GU ratio of 1 or less. Maybe shooting for a BU:GU ratio closer to 0.714?

    Cheers!
     
  17. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    I think carapils has no place here,replace it with wheat malt,in case you can not then just mash a bit higher(154F),I would add some hops between 30-15 min to enhance hop flavor,at least 0,75 oz.
    3 grs of gypsum at mashing time should help hop flavors.
     
  18. DocT

    DocT Initiate (0) May 14, 2009 Idaho

    I really like the high carmel/crystal content for this recipe. I think, if you plan to brew this in several trials, just leave it how it is and mash it at 152 (the homebrewers fall-back). If it turns out too dry and bitter you can bump it up to 156 next time. I really dont think a low temp will achieve your desired result regardless of the amount of kilned malt, it will be dry and have a caramel taste. 4.5%abv with 50+ IBU's sounds like a nice summertime ale, good-luck.
     
    JebediahScooter likes this.
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    One thing I meant to mention in my previous post is that a very valuable resource for developing recipes is the book Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels. In that book they discuss various aspects of a beer recipe for many different beer styles. One aspect which is addressed is the BU:GU ratio for the various beer styles. For anybody who wants to explore recipe formulation, I would highly recommend this book.

    Cheers!
     
  20. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    Brew day went well yesterday. I moved 100% of my hop additions to 15 minutes and on, pitched at 64 (one of my best jobs ever of getting the entire fermenter volume at exactly pitching temps by adjusting CFC flow rate). Had an active fermentation when I checked this morning. We'll see how it goes...probably won't be what I want, but this was just a jumping off point as I mentioned.

    Next question: since part of this brew is an experiment in turning around smaller beers in shorter amounts of time, what do you think about a fermentation schedule? Prevailing "I let it go 3 weeks" and "the beer is ready when it's ready" types of wisdom aside (this is my normal approach), what would be a good balance between getting the beer ready properly and getting it ready quickly? I've read a lot about folks conducting this sort of experiment (ie kegging at day 4 or whatever and getting the gas on it straight away), but any experience around here? I've developed great patience as a brewer and usually just let them sit until they're ready, so I've never really thought about trying to go grain to glass with a smaller beer ASAP. Any folks here ever play with this? I don't HAVE to get this beer ready for any particular reason, just experimenting to develop a quick turn around, low abv house beer.
     
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