Wyeast 3724? Because I said so...thats why.

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Humanity, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    So I am a relatively new brewer and I love saisons. I decided to order a saison kit using wyeast 3724. After reading the stalling horror stories and ordering about 100$ more brewing equipment to support the temperature regulations I think I came up a method to support a good yeast starter and proper temp controlled fermentation wanted to run it by "saisoned" pro's (you see what I did there :slight_smile: and get any recommendations.
    I am making a starter tonight at about 10pm (Wednesday) using a stir plate inside a cooler with my carboy warmer inside the cooler to keep temps at 78 degrees F for 72 hours (brewing Saturday morning). I read that this strain needs at least 48 hours to kick start so I went with 72 to be sure. After brewing I will pitch yeast to 78 degree wort and do primary fermentation (initially with an airlock for first 1.5-2 wks until gravity is at least 1.024) starting temp at 78 on brew day ending primary fermentation at about 83 degrees by the end of the two weeks. Then siphoning to glass carboy for secondary fermentation with only aluminum foil on top and moving from 83 degrees to 90 degrees over a 1.5 month period or until FG is at 1.005 or below. Then bottle conditioning for two weeks in my basement (about 55-60 degrees) for two weeks. Remembering the whole time to just be patient and ramp up temps if gravity stalls. Any pro's want to weigh in and tell me any recommendations? I would really appreciate any feedback!
    Some people say just do one primary fermentation and keep the same yeast cake but, the directions of the kit say do a secondary. Also, the kit doesnt call for a starter but, I prefer to do one? Thoughts?
    it is an extract kit if that makes a difference to your answer.
     
  2. Push_the_limits

    Push_the_limits Initiate (30) Feb 8, 2018 Antarctica

    That sounds great. Sounds like you are very carefully watching the temp. You should have no problems.
    I always like to do a secondary. it really helps the yeast separate, especially in a low-flocc yeast like 3724. it also allows aging time. the only reason not to do a secondary is to save time.
    Starter sound like a great idea, but it would help to know your target OG.

    Yeah, just be patient and keep and eye on temp and gravity. Can you post the recipe?
     
  3. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    1) Make sure to add a good dose of yeast nutrient to the boil.

    2) Don't do a secondary. Every recipe kit I have ever seen says to do one, but they are not necessary unless doing extended aging, or a second fermentation (say of fruit, or wild bacteria and yeast).

    3) I would start with foil over the top and allow it to breathe the first few days. Open fermentation seems to be one of the best things for Saison strains, 3724 especially.

    4) Set it and forget it. Set your temps, walk away, and don't mess with it for 4 weeks. Take a gravity sample after 4 weeks to see where it is. If it is still high, leave it alone another week. If it is still high, leave it alone another week.

    5) 2 weeks at 55-60 in bottles will not get you to the desired carbonation levels on this beer. Give it at least 3 weeks, and I would either keep it inside the same container you are using to heat the starter, or in a ferm chamber with your next beer, or in the warmest area in your house. After it hits full carbonation move the bottles to the basement until ready to chill and drink.

    6) Send me bottles for feedback and to say thank you for 1-5...
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I personally only conduct a primary when brewing ales without additions (e.g., oak, fruit, etc.).

    Given the schedule you outlined of:

    · Primary: 1.5 – 2 weeks

    · Secondary: 1.5 months

    Yeah, maybe conducting a secondary makes sense in this case. Keeping the beer on a yeast cake for a total of 2 months is longer than I would prefer.

    Just take great care in conducting this secondary. Practice good sanitation and minimize the introduction of air (oxygen) during the transfer.

    What is the OG for this batch of beer?

    Cheers!
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    How long do you feel comfortable letting the beer sit on the yeast cake?

    Cheers!
     
  6. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    I've gone 5 weeks at 80+*F with 3724 with no issue. Autolysis isn't as big an issue in a 5 gallon batch as it is in a 50 barrel batch, as it is not just time and temp, but also pressure. Only time I ever had autolysis in a beer was when I pitched a pint of thick and old slurry into a Wee Heavy that sat for 4 weeks. There was so many dead cells in that slurry that I was asking for it.
     
  7. MrOH

    MrOH Crusader (792) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    This is the way to go. If you really want to fiddle with temperatures, I'd say pitch at 68* then let it free rise where it wants to go, and boost temp into the 80s after 5 days.
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I agree with that but I personally would not want to go 2 months on a cake regardless of 5 gallons.

    Cheers!
     
  9. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    Me either. I doubt this beer will take more than 4 weeks to hit terminal.
     
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  10. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (235) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Don't do a secondary.
    Most brewers (self included) have the patience to let a beer sit in primary for 5 weeks.
     
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  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,446) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    OP: Some of this has already been mentioned, but I'll C&P from another thread what I believe are the keys to foolproof success with 3724:

    - Make an appropriate starter, targeting at least 0.75M cells/ml/°P. Do not follow the dumbed-down, generic instructions on the pack. (Or if you do, don't complain that the strain sucks.)
    - Use a nutrient blend in the boil.
    - Oxygenate the wort with pure O2.
    - Use fermentation temperature control. It doesn't have to be particularly warm (anything above about 68F will work), but I suspect some peoples' problems have occurred due to a drop in temp. You can increase temp to finish fermentation if you are in a hurry, but it's not really necessary.

    Expect 3724 to ferment slowly. It just does (usually). It can take several weeks. Don't assume "slow" means "stalled." I suspect a lot of "stalled" reports are really just slow (i.e. normal for the strain) fermentations, without noticing the gravity coming down slowly but surely. (And then confirmation (bias) is just a quick google away. "Crank up the temp!" "Rock the carboy!")
     
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  12. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,730) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    A good dose of yeast, such as that from a stir plate starter (use a yeast calculator), some aeration of the wort, a modestly warm temperature (like 70 degrees), and a modicum of patience, and you'll have a saison. Extreme measures not needed.
     
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  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Patience is not the issue here. The issue is does over a month on the yeast cake have 'impacts' to the flavor profile of the resulting beer.

    It is indeed true that yeast autolysis will occur more quickly in tall CCV fermentation tanks but even 5 gallon batches can be impacted over time (e.g., greater than a month).

    Do you have any references to scientific papers which indicate that yeast autolysis has zero impact here?

    Cheers!
     
  14. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (235) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Sorry that was meant to say don't have the patience. As in I never leave a beer in primary longer than three weeks cause I'm inpatient.
     
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  15. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (259) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Has anyone ever tried the mashing and fermenting regime that DuPont does for their beers that Phil Markowski outlines in his book? Starting at 113 and slowly raising it over 1:48 to 162 to maximize fermentability. Fermenting at 85-95 the whole time. Also they add no sugar to Vieille Provision and it still gets to 1.005. It’s 100% Pilsner malt.

    Also has anyone else ever come across info that states that adding more simple sugars can make it more difficult for specific yeast strains to ferment the complex sugars at the end of fermentation. So potentially adding sugar to a beer fermented with 3724 could actually increase the likelihood of a stall?
     
  16. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    So I made the starter and have it sitting at 78 in a stir plate in the cooler. Car boy heater is doing a great job at holding the temps and thermostat probe is dangling in the stirring water. I really appreciate all the help and replies! I’m new to this community and feel very welcomed!
     
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  17. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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  18. jeebeel

    jeebeel Initiate (158) Jun 17, 2003 Texas

    OP, this sums it up. Plus the preceding post by VikeMan.

    Do these things, keep your equipment sanitized, leave your saison alone for about 4 weeks, and you'll be fine. Cheers and welcome.
     
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  19. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    Keep in mind that Dupont has a blend of at least 4 strains, 1 rumored to be a Brett b strain. Wyeast 3724 is only one of the 4. Speculation is that WLP 565 is a similar but different strain. WLP 566 is another separate strain, a diasticus Sacc strain, which would explain Dupont's faster turn around time with this strain alongside the other two and a Brett strain.
     
  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,730) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    I'm interested in hearing if anyone feels that they have stumbled upon (or determined elegantly) the perfect proportion of these strains (or other saison blends). I liked the averagely perfect brett saison recipe, but didn't think mine came out all that Dupont-ish (it only had two of the four strains above). Was never a huge fan of the American Farmhouse blend that white labs puts out, either.
     
  21. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    Buy a fresh bottle of Dupont Avril and culture up the dregs. APS used the Orval Brett B if I remember correctly. It is a different Brett B than what is in Dupont; Orval's is much more aggressive and barnyard forward.
     
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  22. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    OG is 1.056
     
  23. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    I would be more than happy to send you a couple bottle for feedback when I am done? I am in Philadelphia?
    Last question, for your previous experience with 3724 what is a good FG to work towards? I was thinking around 1.005?
     
  24. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I have brewed with 3724 twice and that is about where I ended up but the FG you achieve is dependent on the fermentability of your wort. There is really no way for anybody (including yourself) to exactly know how fermentable your kit beer will be.

    Warning: you better make sure your beer has completely finished fermentation (i.e., reached the FG) before you bottle your beers. Otherwise bottle bombs may occur.

    Cheers!
     
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  25. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    Thanks for the heads up!
     
  26. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/Saison.pdf
     
  27. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    can you give a recommendation of any specific yeast nutrients to use with this strain? I have heard that some nutrients are very basic/acidic and throw off the taste a lot!
     
  28. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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  29. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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  30. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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  31. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    1.005 is where I tend to land when I use that strain. Like @JackHorzempa said, your beer might not have the same FG, but it is a point to aim for.
     
  32. MrOH

    MrOH Crusader (792) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Yep, what I use in every batch. Cheap insurance.
    Those folks must not be using it as directed. 1/2 teaspoon in a 5 gallon batch with 10 minutes left in the boil (same as your Whirlfloc, how convenient!). It gives off a little bit of ammonia when you first add it, but that's all boiled off.
     
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  33. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    Every yeast starter and every boil.

    Using a little more than 1/2 t with 3724 is a good idea.
     
  34. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,730) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    I would have used a wyeast or white labs Brett b. Pitched the whole package
     
  35. MrOH

    MrOH Crusader (792) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Are you sure you're in Philadelphia?
    If so, you have lots of LHBS options! Both of the Philly Homebrew Outlet locations and Home Sweet Homebrew are in the city proper, and there are a few options in the suburbs as well. Keystone Homebrew if you're willing to drive north a bit was my favorite.
     
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  36. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    So I ran into a new conundrum. Should I cold crash and decant this yeast and if so how long should I refrigerate for? (Normal refrigerator temperature?) or should I just pour the whole starter in?
    Brew day in t minus 35 hours
     
  37. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    This is for the starter not the brew
     
  38. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,247) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
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    Crash it until morning of... Brew, chill, decant, add fresh wort from your brewday... put it on the stirplate for an hour or two... pitch...
     
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  39. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    That’s where I bought most of my materials :slight_smile: (keystone)
     
  40. Humanity

    Humanity Initiate (0) Apr 4, 2018 Pennsylvania
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    So I am a noob and also a perfectionist and have to do this right,
    1)crash the starter tonight until sat morning
    2)brew batch
    3)chill batch (wort chiller)
    4)decant the brew (I am going to siphon to primary for decant)
    5)decant the starter
    6)put the then chilled and decanted wort into the cold crashed decanted starter
    7)put THAT on the stir plate for two hours
    8) (I am also going to aerate the wort in this time)
    9) then pitch the starter yeast
    Am I missing anything ?